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Peterpools

AK True Colors

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Carl great.

How about a mini rebiew and tutorial, as I’m starting to chomp at the bit.

Petet

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I'm inclined to give some of the AK colours a try - just out of curiosity. Quite liked their metallic paints. 

Apart from that, I'm a rabid Gunze devotee... 
(I'll be turning 50 this year, so I guess it's an incipient stage of senile stubborness)

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Judging by the discussions occuring on multiple Forums, AK seem to have really shaken the tree with some of their conclusions and formulas. 

I would also be particularly interested in a review; to delve deeper into the Luftwaffe paint mixes, their compositions and the prevalence of Zinc Chromate in the late War colours.

Managed to find this little reference elswhere, very interesting as it hints at the instability of Zinc Chromate as pertains to colour shift and chemical leaching after application.

(Hint... think RLM 76 for instance)

IMG_20190120_162806.thumb.jpg.8d373c7ba18faf95cc7994a144cc5237.jpg

(Source:

Organic Coatings: Science & Technology

John Wiley & Sons, 2017)

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Guys, I'll try to do a mini review of the paints in the next few days. I've picked up a few now. 

In general, they spray and behave like Mr Color paints. You need to thin them slightly more as they're thicker but otherwise they spray, cover, and clean up the same way. I even use Mr Color Levelling Thinner to thin them. 

I've got RLM 02, 65, 71 and their US interior colour set as well as a couple RAF colours.

I may have a hard time with determining colour accuracy as I'm slightly colourblind but will do the best I can. 

Here's the RLM65 sprayed on the lower wing of my Bf110. 

IMG_20190117_001241-L.jpg

Wumm, great article on chromate and its use in primers. Years ago, the police cars here in Toronto were painted a bright chrome yellow but they discontinued it as the chromium in the paint was toxic. In fact the old police garages where they did the paint work were classified as contaminated lands and were condemned by the city. They ended up doing huge amounts of remediation and cleanup before they could sell it.

 

Carl

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On 1/15/2019 at 4:34 PM, harv said:

But what about us acrylic guys ??.....harv

Harv, can you get Xtracrylix where you are? I've got some of their paints and they're acrylic. In fact they don't like lacquer thinners of any kind, whether it's for thinning or cleanup. I have their thinner but other folks state they use tap water for thinning. Hannants will ship it overseas too if you buy it from them. It has a very tough finish when dry too.

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I'll look into it. Thanks Carl......harv

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9 hours ago, BlrwestSiR said:

Harv, can you get Xtracrylix where you are? I've got some of their paints and they're acrylic. In fact they don't like lacquer thinners of any kind, whether it's for thinning or cleanup. I have their thinner but other folks state they use tap water for thinning. Hannants will ship it overseas too if you buy it from them. It has a very tough finish when dry too.

Can you post a picture of the cross reference chart or send me a copy via a pm?

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Following the the ongoing discussions on various Sites regarding late War Luftwaffe colours, largely brought about by the AK interpretations; I sent this message on Friday to a Fellow who is a Member here but hasn't visited in quite some time, as I am unable to post on a particular Site and the bickering there was becoming painful to watch. It may make sense to some of you, and I post it here now for posterity

   ...............................

Dear xxxxxx,

I don't know if you will see this. It seems like you haven't visited this site for a couple of years.

Vincent is of course correct. The key to late War Luftwaffe colours is the inclusion of Zinc Chromate in the formulations as part of a simplified one-coat primer and colour coverage for metal surfaces introduced in 1943.

The particular Zinc Chromate used in WW2 Germany was called Zinc Yellow, it is a bright yellow colour RAL 1018. Used in solution along with Zinc White (Zinc Oxide), it gave the paints anti-corosive properties, alleviating the need for a two step primer and paint process that therefore saved resources. However, Zinc Chromate is not light fast... It darkens over time with age, turns grey-green with exposure to humidity, and brown with expose to sulphur (think exhaust gases). Furthermore, problems with solubility could make the Zinc Chromate component bubble and leach from the solution, therefore actually inhibiting corrosion control (see Vincent's example).

The reasons we are seeing a green tint to late War Farbton 02, 66, 76 etc is simply due to the one coat primer and paint colours and the yellow-green influence of Zinc Yellow in the solution, that would not have been present when these areas were primed separately. The reason we have two noticibly different RLM 66 colours in cockpits, is that wooden instrument panels have no need for anti-corrosive paint to be applied. The reason we have areas of different coloured RLM 76 underside panels, for example on the AWM Bf109 G-6, is that paint stocks or components from before the change would appear the same or similar to the newer formulas until exposed to light or the elements, especially if still in the can.

It naturally follows that all RLM colours from early 1944 onwards would have this green tinge naturally occurring to varying extremes; this of course also applies to this new blue RLM 83 (if in fact it ever was actually accepted by the RLM as a blue).

Steve

   ................................

For the record, AK Interactive have published a formula for RLM 83, which includes double the amount of Zinc Yellow pigment compared to Blue. The formula is apparently undated, and gives no Manufacturing source.

Once again... Twice as much yellow pigment as blue.

S

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For those interested, or not quite up to speed with the RLM83 developments...

About 5 years ago, German researcher Michael Ullmann discovered a document regarding RLM colour evaluations from 1943; which mentioned that a new dark blue colour was being tested for use in the Mediterranean, and it named that colour as RLM83. Apart from this document, RLM83 has only been noted in one other instance; in a passage where markings and stencils are detailed, where it is mentioned as a dark colour but no actual colour description is given. 

IMG_20190204_080041.thumb.jpg.9346808746107b17a5e91effa95d0552.jpg

No samples of this blue are known to exist. Ullmann also states that RLM83 was not to be applied at the point of manufacture, but was only for use at Unit or maintenance level... this to me does not make sense. Developing a completely new surface colour incorporating valuable anti-corrosion resources is a complete waste if only to be oversprayed onto already camouflaged aircraft at Unit level. Ullmann's own quote from TOCH Forum...

IMG_20190203_220721.thumb.jpg.ce24a0d781d88fe8e89d504c66290e54.jpg

Finally, this is the colour Ullmann believes RLM83 to be.

IMG_20190203_101938.thumb.jpg.c08ecc733ebbff253dc99a94f65497f4.jpg

S

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On 2/3/2019 at 11:24 PM, Wumm said:

(...) this to me does not make sense. Developing a completely new surface colour incorporating valuable anti-corrosion resources is a complete waste if only to be oversprayed onto already camouflaged aircraft at Unit level. (...)

It seems said colour was mainly/exclusively developed to meet specific operational requirements of units operating in the mediterranean theatre, particularly considering operations over the Mediterranean Sea - colouring+corrosion protective additives (against a salty environment). The new colour would have been also used to recamouflage existing aircraft - unit/depot level repaints. Attrition replacements were often allocated (ad hoc) from other units - unit/depot level repaints.

The manufacturers built the RLM/GL-stipulated monthly numbers according to common OS-Liste paint specs and standards. Quite freqently, new-built aircraft were allocated to frontline units on a "ad hoc" basis. Unit allocation plans, schedules and priorities could (and did) change on a regular basis.  Aircraft originally intended for units in the Mediterranean eventually ended up in the East and vice versa. This given, the decison was made not to further interfere with an already extremely strained aircraft production, and paint/repaint the corresponding aircraft in situ.

Even prior to the recommended introduction of "RLM 83 Dunkelblau", it was common practice to recamouflage factory-fresh aircraft in "tropical" RLM 78/79/80 colours at unit/depot level.

Beyond that, I perfectly agree with Michael that "RLM 83 Dunkelgruen as we knew it" was just a variation of RLM 81.

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On 2/4/2019 at 9:37 AM, Ivan Ivanovich said:

Even prior to the recommended introduction of "RLM 83 Dunkelblau", it was common practice to recamouflage factory-fresh aircraft in "tropical" RLM 78/79/80 colours at unit/depot level.

That is a given. However, it was not common practice to completely remove the paint from the airframe at Unit or depot level to accomplish this. The underlying paint would stay in place. Therefore, the airframe would already have been primed, either as a two-part process or with a single coating of 7121 paint with anti-corrosion added... The same as with the formula noted by AK. Therefore, to develop such a finish only to have it be oversprayed onto already primed surfaces is a complete waste of resources.

On 2/4/2019 at 9:37 AM, Ivan Ivanovich said:

Beyond that, I perfectly agree with Michael that "RLM 83 Dunkelgruen as we knew it" was just a variation of RLM 81.

Then in the Ullmann document above, what is meant by "und 70 dunkelgrün für Landflugzeuge"? Are we lead to believe that they were also evaluating Dark Blue with Farbton 70 for overland use? Or was a Dark Blue 83 merely a variation of a Green 83 being tested?

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Reommended combinations for maritime role aircraft:

  • RLM 83 + RLM 72 -> seaplanes (e.g. Do 24T, Bv 138, etc.)
  • RLM 83 + RLM 70 -> landplanes (e.g. Ju 88, Fw 200, He 111H-16, etc.)

(no word on RLM 81/RLM 82, though)


Translation:

xMZdwhg.jpg

"Unknowns":

  • When did the development of the new MTO camouflage start?
  • Did the trials of the new MTO camouflage already incorporate the simplified painting system using corrosion-protective topcoats? 

Maybe we should consider the development and testing of an MTO camo incorporating "shade 83" as a different, isolated process.

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2 hours ago, Ivan Ivanovich said:

Maybe we should consider the development and testing of an MTO camo incorporating "shade 83" as a different, isolated process.

This seems to be the current trend. However, it is contradicted by Jerry Crandall stating that he possesses a dark green colour swatch marked as Farbton 83 sourced from an Italian paint manufacturer.

Ullmann also contradicts himself... Stating that there's no possibility of giving "an old paint a new number", and then claims that "This darkgreen is a darkgreen variation of RLM 81". So Farbton 81 can have 3 or 4 variations ranging from chocolate brown to dark green... But Farbton 83 is blue and can only be blue. 

Furthermore, in the same document naming 83 as a dark blue, we have Farbton 70 named as "Dunkelgrün". RLM 70 has always been noted as Schwazgrün... Under this logic, is RLM 70 now a different colour? Do we now change our nomenclature and understanding of Schwazgrün because of a single document? More unknowns...

For every case for dark blue Farbton 83 there is a contradiction in favour of dark green... and vice-versa. To me it is becoming increasingly clear that there must have been blue and green variations of RLM 83, in much the same case as Farbton 76 and the brown variations of 81.

S

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5 minutes ago, Wumm said:

Edit... Double post.

 

Edited by Wumm
Double post

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