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Tank Fight on the Western Front, 1916


Fran

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Was no intention for me to offend anyone..

The model is a simply episode of war, a war that all of us, modelers, know that we would  not like to be there.... Still we model planes, tanks of all wars... Some completed some wrecks....

Planes and Tanks are killing machines... So this model kit just show a battle between tank and infantary... In war people die... I really don`believe that this model kit is a bad taste one but I respect diferents opinions... Once I saw a bad taste model: a shooting squad in action... that`s bad taste in my opinion... 

 

For horror, real horror, i can go to internet sites like the one above or just watch the news on the TV...

 

Sorry if I offend anyone...

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I've seen some pretty horrific WW1 era diorama images, with skeletons in mud etc. 

 

What offends one may not necessarily offend another. Offense is of course subjective, but this one, to me at least, looks quite tasteful and just depicts the horror of what confronted these soldiers, having seen a new weapon of war.

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Just as a side note, myself, as I'm sure some others, use model building as a form of therapy for PTSD. I am a combat veteran and have found it much easier to face certain issues through this medium. A good friend found that coping with his "survivor guilt" was easier once I helped him build a diorama honoring the action that won him a Silver Star. So ethics and opinions aside, I tend to view it as a form of 3D art. Bringing a photo to life, if you will.

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Well, guys, I did not want to offend anyone, in any way. 

And, Martin, this is NOT about opinion, and certainly not my opinion.

Opinions are like assholes, we all have them, but you don't go around showing them to everybody - in a perfect world at least.

Opinions have no use anywhere. Better to ignore them and enjoy the hobby, right ?

 

This is about ethics. No more no less. Not mine, but anyone's ethics.

 

Imagine that one of the soldiers in this diorama was still alive. Would he model this scene...?

Would he tell his grandchildren about this situation he was in...?

 

It is one thing to model the past, the machines, and honor the men who gave their life for their comrades.

But it is another thing to portray the circumstances these heroes would have liked to forget.

 

I have seen some blood and gore. I do not wish to see this in 1/32 scale.

My eldest son served in Afghanistan in the Dutch airmobile, he does not feel the need

to build any models or Diorama's about what he has seen and experienced.

 

There is a reason I closed the above posts with a  :poppy:

Honor, thankfulness, remembrance.

No more, no less.

 

Having seen combat...........I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU!!

 

" Honor, thankfulness, remembrance.

No more, no less."

 

By building aircraft and armor models, we are portraying "machines" used in warfare. I feel that when we put them in "context" ( and it is graphic ), that crosses a line that should NOT be crossed. I build models of an era and a war that I wasn't even yet alive for. I have NO desire to relive Vietnam in any context.

People that actually served and experienced that have no wish to be reminded of it........usually the people that glorify the gore are the "wannabees" that think "war is cool". That's because they've never been.......................Just "my two cents", no offense meant to anyone else's viewpoint, just sharing my own.     Jim J. -- "olfogey"

Edited by olfogey
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Well, guys, I did not want to offend anyone, in any way. 

And, Martin, this is NOT about opinion, and certainly not my opinion.

Opinions are like assholes, we all have them, but you don't go around showing them to everybody - in a perfect world at least.

Opinions have no use anywhere. Better to ignore them and enjoy the hobby, right ?

 

This is about ethics. No more no less. Not mine, but anyone's ethics.

 

Imagine that one of the soldiers in this diorama was still alive. Would he model this scene...?

Would he tell his grandchildren about this situation he was in...?

 

It is one thing to model the past, the machines, and honor the men who gave their life for their comrades.

But it is another thing to portray the circumstances these heroes would have liked to forget.

 

I have seen some blood and gore. I do not wish to see this in 1/32 scale.

My eldest son served in Afghanistan in the Dutch airmobile, he does not feel the need

to build any models or Diorama's about what he has seen and experienced.

 

There is a reason I closed the above posts with a  :poppy:

Honor, thankfulness, remembrance.

No more, no less.

 

*Disclaimer: this IS my personal opinion and is in no way connected to LSM or my moderator tasks for LSM!*

 

Well, George, I disagree with you although I respect your opinion. I don't know what you personally have seen or experienced. That's also not that important. I understand what you say about your son, and that he doesn't want or needs to modelling the things he experienced in Uruzgan. I wonder if he looks different to soldiering and / or the government use of violence and indeed the government care for their men than before he went? Chances are that he looks different to those things.

 

And that's why I don't share your distaste for a diorama like this. If I look at most of the dioramas on model shows I see too much scenes of humour: a guy sleeping under his Pz.Kpfw. II on a flatbed railcar with his thumb in his mouth while his buddys are laughing about it; German soldiers that have conquered an American truck during the Ardennes Offensive and are sharing the Christmas presents while wearing Santa hats... Mind you, no dead or wounded around the truck, only smiling Germans. Looking at armed forces through such glasses: adventure! camaraderie! defending freedom! made me wanting to become a career soldier all through my youth. The reality was and is somewhat different...

 

I enjoyed those dioramas when I saw them. However, seeing some footage of a Sherman being shot up by a Panther and a Panther being shot at and seeing wounded trying to escape those vehicles made me think if we as modellers don't portray war as being positive rather than the horror it is...

 

I don't want to encourage people to make dio's showing wounded with spilled guts or bodyparts on the groundwork spilled by mines or artillery but I would respect to see the horrors of war featured in subdued tones: No tank commander standing in his cupola pointing to the enemy and screaming but a tank in ambush with his commander somewhat out of the cupola shivering in the cold. Or seeing soldiers with the 1000-yard stare.

 

What I find a strong diorama is the one about the "Bloedbeek" (Blood Creek) featuring a Churchill during the fighting around Overloon. It was the Loobeek (Loo Creek), that literally ran red from the heavy losses instilled on the British while crossing it. You don't see gory details, but you see a disabled Churchill with proof that not everyone got out and an infantryman that got killed in the creek.

 

The creek today:

xma2.jpg

 

7r47.jpg

 

 

These are pictures of the diorama. I don't find them offensive but for your sake I just post them as links so you can chooose yourelf to view them or not.

 

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/5929/nkgd.jpg

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img20/3228/5pp4.jpg

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img443/9771/bu8r.jpg

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img694/7626/rn56.jpg

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img534/7154/eah1.jpg

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img834/1098/zh8v.jpg

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img547/526/h00d.jpg

 

To summarize: we don't honour those -soldier or civilian- who became victim of war by showing war as any less than a horror. On the other hand we must not make a horror-movie-scene out of it. If blood, injury or death is shown in a diorama it CAN be ethical and doesn't automatically point to the modeller being tasteless.

 

I see the 1916 diorama in that way; it graphically shows the fury and the fear of fighting in and against the first tanks... without making it a cheap horror show.

 

And that is also one of the reasons I rather finish my models solo; concentrating on the wonderful mechanics of those dreadful machines...

 

Cheers,

Erik.

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Guys, I don't want to extend this argument any further. I think that Martin is right about this - this forum is about modeling and not about any form of judgment, or politics, or religion. And that is that. I agree with most of the criticism about my statements.

I feel I have stepped out of line, concerning the purpose of this forum. And I apologize to everybody who has taken offense in any way, and to Antonio because he brought this item to our attention in the best of intentions. I do mean that sincerely.

 

But, having said that I must also say that there are differences between diorama's that show the reality of war, the Blood Creek, or all the other examples that were mentioned, soldiers sharing a Coke, or manning a gun, whatever. There's a lot of scope for those who wish to portray man's experiences in war. 

 

What shocked me in the diorama of that tank being attacked by soldiers was something else. The fury, the stabbing of bayonets through the tank's hatches, the expressions on the faces, those are the mental pictures anyone who has experienced such battle will want to forget.

Or they may want to deal with, in their own way, perhaps even by modeling it. Because they have experienced it too.

 

But this diorama is for sale. It was made for the market... What market, I ask therefore... And, who designed this - some workbench-warrior...?

 

That's what bothered me.

And if this sort of scenes bother me, I will say so. Even if it makes some other modeler uncomfortable.

We model war-machines, why should we feel comfortable...?

 

I spend much of my free time in a museum dedicated to the Airwar above the Netherlands in WW2. When I look at the completely bent steering column from the BK714 Stirling bomber I do not look at this from a modeler's perspective. I see how the pilot's body has bent that steering column out of shape at the moment of impact when he crashed and died...

This does not make me feel comfortable, it hits me right where I live inside, every time and again.

And it makes me feel thankful, and very, very humble.

 

And that's all I have to say about this.

 

Hey George, no offense taken. I'm glad you spoke your mind. In the end we between all of us had a civil discussion about it. I think that's modelling too, pondering what we build, how we build it and why we build it. So please (Caution, Dutchism:) don't make your heart into a murder-pit, and keep saying your mind!

 

Cheers, mate!

Erik.

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I think everyone's had his say and I think that everyone has done that in a gracious and civil manner! Thank you all. To be sure that this topic stays as exemplary I'll preventively will lock it. If someone thinks that I've taken away his opportunity to express himself, feel free to send me a PM.

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