Artful69 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 Assistance required ... So ... I'm wanting to create a Kursk On-The-March style Dio ... similar to the B&W photo below ... And before you correct me on markings ... YES, I know this is a different division ... I'm just using the photo as an example of the type of scenery I was wanting to create. The closest info I can find for what I want ... as per the below photos ... According to the Dragon Pz.III.M kit I have the insignia is from the 2.Pz Div (white trident looking marking no.2 on the decal sheet), the coat of arms on the turret schürzen is from Rgt.3 (shield marking no.1 on the decal sheet) and the solid white Panzer ID numbers (marked A on the decal sheet) Now ... aparently, at Kursk, There was a whole bunch of Pz.III.M's, N's, Pz.IV.G's sporting that Shield emblem ... and I what I need to know is: How were the regiments made up ... where the Kompanie's mixed III.M's and N's and IV.G's or just 4 or 5 tanks of one sort?? What was the organisation ... Where these 3 types the only ones or did they include StuG's, Panthers or Tigers alongside?? ... What I might also need is a acquire additional white numbers, shields and or 2nd Panzer insignia TIA for any assistance ... Rog 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wumm Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Hi Rog... According to this site, 2 Pz.Div / 3 Pz.Rgt had a mix of Panzer II, III and IV on strength just before the start of Unternehmen Zitadelle, with 84 ready to commit to action. https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=255873 Also mentioned at the end of the table, "Bef.Wg" X 3, which are possibly Sd.Kfz.234 or similar armoured cars. Those would be separate from those contained within the 5th Panzer Reconnaissance Btn (also part of the 2nd Division), which would have its own separate vehicles. Period photos show the usual mix of RSO, Stüg, and Sd.Kfz.252 of the Regiments usually incumbent with a Panzer Division. If you google "Bundesarchiv + Russland + July + 1943" or along with a PK photographer's name such as "Dreyer" you will find a nice selection of ambient shots to work from. S 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artful69 Posted March 2, 2021 Author Share Posted March 2, 2021 3 hours ago, Wumm said: Hi Rog... According to this site, 2 Pz.Div / 3 Pz.Rgt had a mix of Panzer II, III and IV on strength just before the start of Unternehmen Zitadelle, with 84 ready to commit to action. Also mentioned at the end of the table, "Bef.Wg" X 3, which are possibly Sd.Kfz.234 or similar armoured cars. Those would be separate from those contained within the 5th Panzer Reconnaissance Btn (also part of the 2nd Division), which would have its own separate vehicles. Period photos show the usual mix of RSO, Stüg, and Sd.Kfz.252 of the Regiments usually incumbent with a Panzer Division. If you google "Bundesarchiv + Russland + July + 1943" or along with a PK photographer's name such as "Dreyer" you will find a nice selection of ambient shots to work from. S W.O.W ... Thanks for digging THAT lot up ... I didn't find anything like that during my hours looking online yesterday ... I don't know how you distilled that info from the text provided ... but you're a champ for doing so!! I'll definitely go hunting around using the search parameters you've given me ... At the moment though I'm trying to work out unit organisation ... and it's like finding a needle in a haystack. My Pz.III.M kit directs for markings for any of 5 or 6 Kompanie's AFV's in 3.Rgt ... Yet unless they mixed them up with other variants - that can't be so because both the Pz.III Ausf.N and Pz.IV Ausf.G have markings depicting vehicles in 6 Kompanie ... --- All the Dragon kits I have to hand at the moment have the appropriate decals 2x Pz.IV Ausf.G (one with Magic Track ... One with DS) ... The Pz.III Ausf.N has Magic Track ... and although the Pz.III Ausf.M kit has DS only - it DOES contain surplus white numerals which will come in handy for other M kits. I'm about to pull the trigger on a couple of the Takom Blitz Kits which should be more than suffice ... I doubt I'll need heavy interior detail with figurines poking out of every available open orifice and the link-and-length track style is MUCH better than DS I think ... I figure 4x III.M's, 2x III.N's and a IV.G ... If I can identify a specific Späh vehicle I'll throw that one in to the mix as well ... I might need to get additional solid white decals in the correct font and a wider selection of panzer crew figurines ... Thanks again! Rog 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artful69 Posted March 3, 2021 Author Share Posted March 3, 2021 23 hours ago, Wumm said: Hi Rog... According to this site, 2 Pz.Div / 3 Pz.Rgt had a mix of Panzer II, III and IV on strength just before the start of Unternehmen Zitadelle, with 84 ready to commit to action. Steve ... I just dug this up a little while ago ... This (of course) does not list the combat strength of various divisions and units but it DOES give a listing of units under their various commands ... Does the circled section indicate the 2nd Panzer division ... and if so ... would they have been likely to encounter vehicles such as the Tigers of the 505th listed below and in the column to the left? Rog 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wumm Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 Rog, let me first state (as is often the case)... "The Fog of War". Now that's out of the way... Indeed; the section that you have circled indicates the Heeres 2nd Panzer Division, which was in part made up of the 3rd Panzer Regiment along with separate Infantry, FlaK Reconnaissance and Maintenance units that an Army in battle would require. Immediately underneath in the Order of Battle is the 6th Infantry Division... Note that there is no 'Tank' symbol attached here, more in a minute on that. Searches I've conducted seem to indicate (as does your illustration) that the Pz. Abt. 505 were notionally attached to the 21st Panzer Brigade under Zorn's 46th Corps. Indeed, several sources have them in action in support of the neighbouring 909th Stügs. This would still see them operating in the immediate vicinity of other units during the same Offensive conducted by the 9th Army, especially at the beginning before the situation becomes more confused. However... Other references point to the 505th having directly supported the 6th Infantry, especially on the 5th of July. This would make sense, as the 6th Infantry seem to have no Armoured support according to the OoB from the day previous. This though for me is the clincher... The link I included in my previous post has a page from the 3rd Panzer Regiment's War diary, specifically noting on the 5th of July "The Tiger Abteilung 'Sauvant' tore forward to attack..." The Commander of the Pz. Abt. 505 at Zitadelle was one Major Bernhard Sauvant, who won the Ritterkreuz at Stalingrad for decisive actions, and later the Oak Leaves at Kursk. This points to a man and Unit known by reputation, but perhaps not by number. Either way, with the 505th in full view of the 3rd Panzer Regiment on at least the 5th of July, I would have no problem seeing Tanks of both Units operating together in a diorama setting. HTH, S 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomber_County Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 That’s an amazing piece of research...... 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artful69 Posted March 7, 2021 Author Share Posted March 7, 2021 21 hours ago, Wumm said: Rog, let me first state (as is often the case)... "The Fog of War". Now that's out of the way... Indeed; the section that you have circled indicates the Heeres 2nd Panzer Division, which was in part made up of the 3rd Panzer Regiment along with separate Infantry, FlaK Reconnaissance and Maintenance units that an Army in battle would require. Immediately underneath in the Order of Battle is the 6th Infantry Division... Note that there is no 'Tank' symbol attached here, more in a minute on that. Searches I've conducted seem to indicate (as does your illustration) that the Pz. Abt. 505 were notionally attached to the 21st Panzer Brigade under Zorn's 46th Corps. Indeed, several sources have them in action in support of the neighbouring 909th Stügs. This would still see them operating in the immediate vicinity of other units during the same Offensive conducted by the 9th Army, especially at the beginning before the situation becomes more confused. However... Other references point to the 505th having directly supported the 6th Infantry, especially on the 5th of July. This would make sense, as the 6th Infantry seem to have no Armoured support according to the OoB from the day previous. This though for me is the clincher... The link I included in my previous post has a page from the 3rd Panzer Regiment's War diary, specifically noting on the 5th of July "The Tiger Abteilung 'Sauvant' tore forward to attack..." The Commander of the Pz. Abt. 505 at Zitadelle was one Major Bernhard Sauvant, who won the Ritterkreuz at Stalingrad for decisive actions, and later the Oak Leaves at Kursk. This points to a man and Unit known by reputation, but perhaps not by number. Either way, with the 505th in full view of the 3rd Panzer Regiment on at least the 5th of July, I would have no problem seeing Tanks of both Units operating together in a diorama setting. HTH, S ... And you sir - are a steely eyed missile man! That is one great bit of research Steve ... I mean - I honestly spent about 5-6 hours on and off trying different searches on Google to try to find out info - Trying "Pz.Abt 505 Kursk 1943" I got not much at all - except for about 3 pictures and a bit of info about the Heavy detachments at Kursk in general (apparently the 505th suffered less casualties / equipment losses than most of the others) ... One decent thing that MY research netted ... I'll be buying and using the new Border Tiger.I kit when it makes an appearance here ... From the MBK review, in the instruction sheet it has 2 markings in the kit for 505 at kursk - none of the other kits to hand have any for the 505th and the Border kit looks to be super! Also ... You provided a LINK in your first post ... and my dumbass brain somehow interpreted that as ordinary, underlined text - for whatever insane reason So I've bookmarked the link ... and I'll actually LOOK at the info you've given me a link to ... a little later today. I'm thinking of starting this one up as a WIP too ... input will be most welcome - And I promise to actually LOOK at links in future! Rog 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wumm Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Thank you Rog, Some more to consider when going through the highlighted page... I'll run through some of the symbols and their meanings. The 3rd Panzer Regiment lists the tanks under their control in descending order; Total, Ready for action, Under minor repair and Under major overhaul (14 days). Then the types are listed... The individual Ausf types are not referred to, only the barrel calibre ( K for 'Kurz' (short), L for 'Lang' (long) and 7.5. I'm afraid that I'm not fully up to speed on German Tanks, but hopefully this will give you a guide. I mentioned earlier that they showed 3 Armoured Cars at the end; my apologies, I took 'Bef.Wg.' to mean 'Bewaffenwagen', when of course this should have been 'Befehlswagen' - Command Tanks. This should make them Pz. IV Ausf.J's I believe? If you wish to model one, their Command Tanks were numbered '601' and '602' for example for 6. Kompanie. So, the day before the Battle, the II Corps of the 3rd Panzer Regiment had 87 serviceable Tanks, 3 of them dedicated Command Tanks and no short barrel variants. Some of the information appears to have come from the recollections of a member of the 8th Kompanie, Lt. Seinecke who was the Commander of Tank 811. As such, further down the page we have a fairly detailed list of the Men of 8 Komp., along with the Officers and other staff of the other 3. The breakdown of the Tank types is hand written here inside the Kompanie sections (within the red rectangle), but unfortunately it appears not clear enough to be read. But what it does show, is that there was a mix of different types in each Kompanie. So I would go with the kit suggestions as having different types operating within 6. Kompanie. Also shown opposite in the OoB, is that the I Corps Tank symbols are vacant... ie, the entire 2nd Panzer Division went into arguably the largest Tank battle ever staged with only 87 serviceable Tanks! No wonder they were happy to see the 505th Tigers! S 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GazzaS Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Wumm said: the entire 2nd Panzer Division went into arguably the largest Tank battle ever staged with only 87 serviceable Tanks! No wonder they were happy to see the 505th Tigers! S That's not an unusual number. A Panzer Div only had one regiment of tanks. After the fall of France, each Panzer division had to give up one regiment of tanks to form a new panzer division. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artful69 Posted March 7, 2021 Author Share Posted March 7, 2021 On 3/7/2021 at 11:05 AM, Wumm said: Thank you Rog, Some more to consider when going through the highlighted page... I'll run through some of the symbols and their meanings. The 3rd Panzer Regiment lists the tanks under their control in descending order; Total, Ready for action, Under minor repair and Under major overhaul (14 days). Then the types are listed... The individual Ausf types are not referred to, only the barrel calibre ( K for 'Kurz' (short), L for 'Lang' (long) and 7.5. I'm afraid that I'm not fully up to speed on German Tanks, but hopefully this will give you a guide. I mentioned earlier that they showed 3 Armoured Cars at the end; my apologies, I took 'Bef.Wg.' to mean 'Bewaffenwagen', when of course this should have been 'Befehlswagen' - Command Tanks. This should make them Pz. IV Ausf.J's I believe? If you wish to model one, their Command Tanks were numbered '601' and '602' for example for 6. Kompanie. So, the day before the Battle, the II Corps of the 3rd Panzer Regiment had 87 serviceable Tanks, 3 of them dedicated Command Tanks and no short barrel variants. Some of the information appears to have come from the recollections of a member of the 8th Kompanie, Lt. Seinecke who was the Commander of Tank 811. As such, further down the page we have a fairly detailed list of the Men of 8 Komp., along with the Officers and other staff of the other 3. The breakdown of the Tank types is hand written here inside the Kompanie sections (within the red rectangle), but unfortunately it appears not clear enough to be read. But what it does show, is that there was a mix of different types in each Kompanie. So I would go with the kit suggestions as having different types operating within 6. Kompanie. Also shown opposite in the OoB, is that the I Corps Tank symbols are vacant... ie, the entire 2nd Panzer Division went into arguably the largest Tank battle ever staged with only 87 serviceable Tanks! No wonder they were happy to see the 505th Tigers! S Steve ... Once again ... thanks for the translated info ... and now I can decipher some of it for you ... III-k will be referring to the earlier model short barrelled KwK 38 50mm / L-42 ... a mistake made by the armaments department which began and ended with the early Ausf.J - though retrofitted to some Ausf F, G & H models as well ... Long outdated, this will account for the small numbers making up a divisions strength III-l will be referring to the later long barrelled KwK 39 50mm / L-60 ... The weapon originally requested of the ministry for arms production for all Pz.III's ... and was fitted to all Later Ausf.J's and then K, L and M variants ... III-7.5 is referring to the Ausf.N - the final iteration of the Panzer III - which was basically an Ausf.L or M with the main armament swapped out for same short barrelled KwK 37 75mm / L-24 that the Pz.Kpfw.IV used at the beginning of the war - and finally replacing the IV in the infantry support role ... So in fact, these are the NEW short barrelled variant being used. IV-k will be referring to the earlier model short barrelled KwK 37 75mm / L-24 ... leftovers from the Ausf.D through F1 variants ... long outdated and again will account for the small numbers making up a divisions strength here. IV-l represents the longer barrelled high velocity KwK 40 75mm / L-43 of the Ausf.F2 & G variants used during the campaign (easily distinguishable by the type of muzzle break used) ... Later versions of the Pz.Kpfw.IV (Ausf.H and G) would upgrade to the KwK 40 75mm / L-48 which would improve velocity, range, accuracy and penetrative capabilities - though still nowhere near a potent as the KwK 42 75mm / L-70 of the Panther. ** Insert Edit here!! ... Upon further research it appears that the L-48 upgrades began in March of 1943 and some of the Ausf.G variants present during the campaign were equiped with these ... although which ones, I have no idea! ** In short though ... The info provided (along with the translation) tells me all I'll need really ... In 3.Rgt Panzer Platoons seem to be made up of 4 tanks ... The Panzer III Ausf.M's then to stick together in traditional MBT formations in tanks 1-4 whereas the Ausf.N's and Panzer IV Ausf.G's seem to be a mixed bunch ... I still haven't found any direct evidence of Sd.Kfz.252's attached directly to these companies - even though we knew there must have been - so I have no idea which variant and what markings ... yet ... Rog 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artful69 Posted April 2, 2021 Author Share Posted April 2, 2021 On 3/7/2021 at 11:05 AM, Wumm said: Thank you Rog, Some more to consider when going through the highlighted page... I'll run through some of the symbols and their meanings. The 3rd Panzer Regiment lists the tanks under their control in descending order; Total, Ready for action, Under minor repair and Under major overhaul (14 days). Then the types are listed... The individual Ausf types are not referred to, only the barrel calibre ( K for 'Kurz' (short), L for 'Lang' (long) and 7.5. I'm afraid that I'm not fully up to speed on German Tanks, but hopefully this will give you a guide. I mentioned earlier that they showed 3 Armoured Cars at the end; my apologies, I took 'Bef.Wg.' to mean 'Bewaffenwagen', when of course this should have been 'Befehlswagen' - Command Tanks. This should make them Pz. IV Ausf.J's I believe? If you wish to model one, their Command Tanks were numbered '601' and '602' for example for 6. Kompanie. So, the day before the Battle, the II Corps of the 3rd Panzer Regiment had 87 serviceable Tanks, 3 of them dedicated Command Tanks and no short barrel variants. Some of the information appears to have come from the recollections of a member of the 8th Kompanie, Lt. Seinecke who was the Commander of Tank 811. As such, further down the page we have a fairly detailed list of the Men of 8 Komp., along with the Officers and other staff of the other 3. The breakdown of the Tank types is hand written here inside the Kompanie sections (within the red rectangle), but unfortunately it appears not clear enough to be read. But what it does show, is that there was a mix of different types in each Kompanie. So I would go with the kit suggestions as having different types operating within 6. Kompanie. Also shown opposite in the OoB, is that the I Corps Tank symbols are vacant... ie, the entire 2nd Panzer Division went into arguably the largest Tank battle ever staged with only 87 serviceable Tanks! No wonder they were happy to see the 505th Tigers! S Steve ... Currently in preparation for an epic build ... I wanted to include a few more vehicles though... specifically those that were common during the period (Stug's, Trucks, Halftracks) or had their introductions during the battle (Panther, Ferdinand) ... though not necessarily immediately - as I'm going to split this now into two separate "North" and "South" projects - and I think we both know I'll have my hands full with the "Northern" project for now ... I tried your link above the see if there was any info on unit numbers and deployment similar to the charts you've supplied here ... but some scattered info reviewing a publication on GD's supposedly poor performance is all I could find ... Since GD was the largest and most diverse Division present in the south (and had both Panther regiments attached to them as being part of 48th Corps) I figure I might focus on GD ... Do you have a resource handy or any information on the equipment make up of GD at all?? Also can you think of any glaringly obvious vehicles I have missed out?? Rog 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GazzaS Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 This is a GD vehicle. Though if they had any at Kursk... I couldn't tell ya. ....I still need to build mine. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artful69 Posted April 3, 2021 Author Share Posted April 3, 2021 1 hour ago, GazzaS said: This is a GD vehicle. Though if they had any at Kursk... I couldn't tell ya. ....I still need to build mine. Well ... I have a couple of them in the stash so I'll check the markings 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wumm Posted April 3, 2021 Share Posted April 3, 2021 On 4/2/2021 at 11:01 PM, Artful69 said: Do you have a resource handy or any information on the equipment make up of GD at all?? Also can you think of any glaringly obvious vehicles I have missed out?? Thankfully Rog, With the internet, and the proliferation of Hobbyists and Enthusiasts in both the Modelling and Gaming spheres, there seems there's always information about major battles and turning points during the war. The key to the Wehrmacht is finding the Order of Battle. I managed to find this one on a Gaming site for 4/7/43... https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4673348&mpage=1&key=� Being more of a Luftwaffe Enthusiast I can't vouch for it's complete accuracy, but the layout seems logical to me. Notable that according to this information, the 3rd Regiment had not received their complement of heavy (Tiger) tanks, as they were only raised 3 days earlier back in Germany proper. The following is a generic guide for late War German Army symbols... This will help greatly in determining the strength of the GD Companies and Units, and the types of vehicles likely in use. For example: I have highlighted 2nd Company of the GD's Aufklärer Regiment (armed Reconnaissance) below. At the top, we have the stylised tick indicating the Aufklärer unit, the '2.' of 2nd Company, and the thick border to the left of the rectangle to indicate Company strength. At the bottom, we see a small circle and oblong track, which indicates half track... The small 'm' inside shows the vehicle size 'mittel' for medium. Then; within the rectangle of the Company we have an angle showing Mortar, a gun of 3.7cm calibre, and the line with 2 dots indicating machine gun, along with the numbers corresponding to each underneath. So by inference: 2nd Company of the GD Aufklärer Regiment has 2 x Sd.Kfz.251/2 with mortar, 3 x Sd.Kfz.251/10 with 3.7 Pak gun, 4 x standard Sd.Kfz.251/1 troop carriers with machine guns only, and a complement of 56 enlisted men. I'm afraid that I can't help with individual side numbers of vehicles, but logically the first number would be a '2', and of course these vehicles would have the 'half track's tactical symbol and the white 'GD' helmet in the usual places. Using the guide above, you should be able to work out the types of vehicles that GD would have been using during Zitadelle. Suffice to say, that I can see everything here from Motorcycle combinations to Famo's from which to choose. S 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artful69 Posted April 4, 2021 Author Share Posted April 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Wumm said: Thankfully Rog, With the internet, and the proliferation of Hobbyists and Enthusiasts in both the Modelling and Gaming spheres, there seems there's always information about major battles and turning points during the war. The key to the Wehrmacht is finding the Order of Battle. I managed to find this one on a Gaming site for 4/7/43... https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4673348&mpage=1&key=� Thanks again Steve ... I guess for the most part I'm looking in the wrong places ... Your explanation on translating the unit identifiers helps a lot also!! Theres still some stuff I'll need to work out ... The quadrilateral shapes seem to be Panzer related while the rectangular ones are infantry ... I'm trying to work out the 'Y' symbol inside both the quadrilateral shapes up at the top there (not included in the symbols identifier below) ... and RHS of the second row from the bottom in what seems like an engineering regiment?? ... then in the same section theres two smaller figures - but according to the identifier chart these both mean the same thing - light engineering company?? Anyway ... I'll keep looking myself - but many thanks for the assist!!! *** EDIT - I found the sheet below!! ... The 'Y' symbol is a flame thrower!! (on any designated vehicle type) ... the first of the pointy arrow cart thingy's has 'le' ... it's a light engineer transport column - motorised ... and the second one is a bridging column 'K' type - motorised (obviously a either a component or particular size of bridging) ... This little sucker will be very useful *** Rog 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wumm Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 Yes, that's it Rog... Because it's within an oblong rectangle, it's an armoured flamethrower. So, a Hetzer or more likely an Ausf.M Panzer III, attached to the Staff of l and ll Companie. S 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artful69 Posted April 4, 2021 Author Share Posted April 4, 2021 18 minutes ago, Wumm said: Yes, that's it Rog... Because it's within an oblong rectangle, it's an armoured flamethrower. So, a Hetzer or more likely an Ausf.M Panzer III, attached to the Staff of l and ll Companie. S Yep ... starting to catch on - I figured that because Pz.III Ausf.M's were attached to strengthen a lot of heavy tank battalions it would probably make sense to assume it's a Pz.III (F-1) such as the Cyber Hobby kit in the link below (not ruling out the Hetzer BTW - just going of a Teutonic commonsense hunch): https://ipmsusa.org/reviews2/mil-veh/kits/cyberhobby_35_flammpanzer/cyberhobby_35_flammpanzer.htm No markings are mentioned ... so I checked the kit number against the Scalemates website (wonderful resource, this one!) whose info still wasn't precisely clear ... but gave me a quick link to an Armorama in box review - which says there are decals supplied for - surprise, surprise (you guessed it) - GroßDeuchland division. https://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=9235 What is yet unclear is the quadrilateral boxes with the 'm' inside them ... obviously it pertains to 'medium' class panzers .. but whether these are Pz.III's or Pz.IV's remains to be seen - so back to a 'deep dive' later today!! Rog 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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