Zoukei-Mura P51D Mustang SWS No 4.

[Bomber_County]

51 minutes ago, Jackster said:

Very nice work Phil, looking stunning

Thanks Kev, much appreciated. I think this is the most enjoyable build I’ve had.   I was looking back at some of my first builds I showed here.........hmmm.....let’s just say not my finest. It’s amazing with a little encouragement and some courage to push your skills, what you can achieve.....

[Peterpools]

Phil

The cream always rises to the top

Keep ‘em comin

Peter

[Bomber_County]

3 hours ago, Peterpools said:

The cream always rises to the top

I’ve got a lot of catching up to emulate you guys......it’s working progress..

[Bomber_County]

Ok after reading Peter's decisions on his P39, it’s time to finishthe 51. So I thought I’d try and spray the cowls tacked on to the engine, bad idea and this has paused the build. So cowls off and will be cut into component parts and sprayed. Scheme may have to OOB as can’t justify another £20 odd for new decals. also the ZM ones are cartograf…..looks like no work this week ……so may just sit and spray……..

[Peterpools]

Phil

We've all been there and done that more then a few times and at this stage in my modelling life, I'm an expert at stripping and repainting.  Sometimes I just can't figure out which will work out the best: assemble and paint or paint and assemble assemblies. I know which ever way I go, it's usually the wrong way. I even tried the George Castanza principal but it didn't work for me 

Completely agree, buying another set of decals when the kit comes with Cartograf is very tough to justify.

Keep 'em comin

Peter

[Bomber_County]

Didn’t realise it’s been so long since I put this down………so with P38 finished, Pz IV H in the booth, it’s time to finish the 51……..decided on the livery and doing preparation work ready for the booth …… but………the livery chosen shows a Dallas canopy, which I’m not a great fan of…..so would it be a heinous crime to substitute it with the either IngleWood canopies ????….ZM supply all three………be interested in your comments……

[Peterpools]

Phil

Glad to see your ZM P-51 is back on the back and under way again. Not sure about the canopy and not being an expert on Mustangs, I would assume, in the field, canopies might have been switched. personally, go with what you like, as it's your kit and you're the only opinion that really counts in the long run.

Keep 'em comin

Peter

[Bomber_County]

Having put this on the shelf awhile ago it’s time to finish this. The reason it went on the SOD was I tried to spray AK Xtreme metals and failed miserably. The finish was grainy and just didn’t look good. All my own fault, just didn’t get it right. Anyway, sanded the whole model down and have chosen a scheme that doesn’t have lots of exposed NMF. The question is having put Xtreme black abase and then Xtreme metal over the top, could I use either Xtracolour enamels or Vallejo Model Air over the top. My reasoning is the Xyptreme have been on there for 2 years + so maybe not effect the next coat? Just do want another disaster. Would be interested in your thoughts.

[BlrwestSiR]

That's an interesting question. I think if you're not using something hot, then you should be okay. But, most of these metal paints don't take well to masking so that could be an issue. You might get some paint lifting if any significant masking is required. 

[DocRob]

I´m thinking the same like Carl, Xtreme Metal colors are more durable than Alclads, but I wouldn´t trust them as a base for extensive masking. But what´s even worse is the Xtreme Metal black base. I had only bad results with this stuff. sticky forever and just a bad base and possibly the cause for your bad results with the NMF. I would strip the stuff, using thinner and start from the beginning. I binned my Xtreme black base and use Tamiya LP gloss black instead, which is perfect for the job, sprays well, dries fast and is durable and truly high gloss. I thin it with 2/3 of leveling thinner.

Cheers Rob
 

[Bomber_County]

14 hours ago, BlrwestSiR said:

That's an interesting question. I think if you're not using something hot, then you should be okay. But, most of these metal paints don't take well to masking so that could be an issue. You might get some paint lifting if any significant masking is required. 

I reckon the  Xtracolour enamel maybe a little hot for it, maybe Vallejo is the answer……..

[Bomber_County]

5 hours ago, DocRob said:

I´m thinking the same like Carl, Xtreme Metal colors are more durable than Alclads, but I wouldn´t trust them as a base for extensive masking. But what´s even worse is the Xtreme Metal black base. I had only bad results with this stuff. sticky forever and just a bad base and possibly the cause for your bad results with the NMF. I would strip the stuff, using thinner and start from the beginning. I binned my Xtreme black base and use Tamiya LP gloss black instead, which is perfect for the job, sprays well, dries fast and is durable and truly high gloss. I thin it with 2/3 of leveling thinner.

Cheers Rob
 

Thanks Rob, I think it was the black base that caused some of the problems in the first place. The only masking to be done are the invasion stripes, ZM include those as decals so could go that route. Not sure if the Xtreme thinner will effect the plastic, I’ll have to try a section. The fail safe is I guess is Vallejo…….

[BlrwestSiR]

Phil, if you're going to strip the model, you can Tamiya or Mr Color lacquer thinner to do so. Both are cool enough to strip the paint and not affect the plastic. Looking back, I had to partially strip my CF-104 and I used Mr Color lacquer thinner to do so. That was done with AK Xtreme Metal over a black base coat. 

I had some weird paint issues after trying to paibt a contrasting panel. 

For the repaint, I did the panel first in lacquer, masked it and then re-sprayed the Xtreme Metal. 

[Peterpools]

Phil

Good to see your ZM P-51 is back on the bench.

I'm right with Carl and Rob. My way of redoing a paint finish is to completely remove every ounce of paint and primer and I go the Mr Hobby Self Leveling Thinner route. I never sand as that's way too much work with all the finishing and polishing grades of sanding to go through.  

I never ever had any luck using Alclad or Xtreme Metals Gloss Black Bases. After stripping off all the paint and primer, one last wipe over with Isopropyl Alcohol to make sure everything is clean, plus no finger prints and oils. 

Primer of choice: MRP Gray Primer - lacquer.

Gloss Black Base: Mr Color Gloss Black (2)or Tamiya Gloss Black (LP 1). With lacquers from the plastic on up, they are impervious to whatever paint and NMF product you wish to use. I've been very lucky and mask right on top of my NMF with de-tacked Tamiya tape and can't remember ever having lifted off any of the metal finishes. I have a good supply of Alclad and Xtreme Metals and agree with Rob that the Xtreme Metals seem to be a bit more durable then Alclads. I normally will use both on any project, intermixing shades of metals as to which brand has the shade I'm after. 

On 32nd scale aircraft, my LG oleos are Chrome over gloss black and then masked over for weeks and a month or more and no issues at all. 

 

   

[Bomber_County]

2 hours ago, BlrwestSiR said:

Phil, if you're going to strip the model, you can Tamiya or Mr Color lacquer thinner to do so. Both are cool enough to strip the paint and not affect the plastic. Looking back, I had to partially strip my CF-104 and I used Mr Color lacquer thinner to do so. That was done with AK Xtreme Metal over a black base coat. 

I had some weird paint issues after trying to paibt a contrasting panel. 

 

 

For the repaint, I did the panel first in lacquer, masked it and then re-sprayed the Xtreme Metal. 

 

Thanks Carl, I have X20 but no Mr Hobby thinner. I’ll give a panel a test to see how it comes off. Next order will be to buy some gloss black base primer. I really want to the 51 in NMF but concerned I’d #### it up again…..hmmmmm decisions…….

[Bomber_County]

1 hour ago, Peterpools said:

Phil

Good to see your ZM P-51 is back on the bench.

I'm right with Carl and Rob. My way of redoing a paint finish is to completely remove every ounce of paint and primer and I go the Mr Hobby Self Leveling Thinner route. I never sand as that's way too much work with all the finishing and polishing grades of sanding to go through.  

I never ever had any luck using Alclad or Xtreme Metals Gloss Black Bases. After stripping off all the paint and primer, one last wipe over with Isopropyl Alcohol to make sure everything is clean, plus no finger prints and oils. 

Primer of choice: MRP Gray Primer - lacquer.

Gloss Black Base: Mr Color Gloss Black (2)or Tamiya Gloss Black (LP 1). With lacquers from the plastic on up, they are impervious to whatever paint and NMF product you wish to use. I've been very lucky and mask right on top of my NMF with de-tacked Tamiya tape and can't remember ever having lifted off any of the metal finishes. I have a good supply of Alclad and Xtreme Metals and agree with Rob that the Xtreme Metals seem to be a bit more durable then Alclads. I normally will use both on any project, intermixing shades of metals as to which brand has the shade I'm after. 

On 32nd scale aircraft, my LG oleos are Chrome over gloss black and then masked over for weeks and a month or more and no issues at all. 

 

   

Thanks Peter, I’ll try X20, that’s all I have. What’s your recommendation on the the Xtreme metals, mine came out very grainy? Too much air, not enough, I didn’t thin them? Really want to do the NFM…….

[Bomber_County]

This is weird, taking into account about masking adhesion etc. Thrown X20A and AK’s odourless thinners for enamels at two separate panels and…….nothing, will not touch. It’s literally baked on ……..I can even try scratching it with a nail after both panels have been soaked for 5 mins……..so my thought are now either can go on top…….

[GusMac]

I'd back up the comments about the black base, Tamiya lacquer is a far better option. Never had any issues masking on Xtreme Metals with kabuki type tapes but Montex vinyl masks ruined the NMF I did on my P47,  leaving residue everywhere. 

[Peterpools]

7 hours ago, Bomber_County said:

Thanks Peter, I’ll try X20, that’s all I have. What’s your recommendation on the the Xtreme metals, mine came out very grainy? Too much air, not enough, I didn’t thin them? Really want to do the NFM…….

Phil

There really isn't any differences in how U shoot Alclad Xtreme Metals

1. Super smooth black base

2. Shake the bottle well to be sure the pigments are all in suspension and nothing is still clinking to the bottom of the bottle.

3. I set my compressor at 1.5 bars or around 12-15 psi, which is not the working pressure, which is less.

4. Light easy mist coats and gradually build up the reflected shine/NMF. 

5. If the NMF is rough and grainy and all of the above was done correctly, the air brush might be too far from the model surface and the Alclad and Xtreme Metal might be drying before it reaches the model's surface.

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

[CANicoll]

Phil,

Sorry to hear of all the trials and tribulations you are having with this build.  Ugh!!!  I have the ZM P-51D to build.  I have used oven cleaner to remove paint on a build.  It is nasty stuff (don't get it on anything metal!) but it really does work without damaging the plastic.

Might be too late to suggest, but have you tried the Vallejo Metal Color finishes?  They are not lacquer and I've found they shoot really well.  I have had no lifting problems over the Vallejo primers, too. Especially the Vallejo Gloss black primer.  I have done Alclad and MRP and love those paints but if you are having prep problems, maybe an easier route is called for?

That said, Peter is an ace at finishes so following his recommendations is never a bad strategy.  I usually shoot Alclad a about 7 psi at the airbrush but I always do a 'test shoot' on an old model (an 1/48 P-51D which I often clean/strip to keep the layers down) before applying to a build just to check the mixture and pressure.

Good luck and can't wait to see how this turns out for you.

Chris

[Peterpools]

Chris

7 PSI might be a bit low, and as a lot depends on the AB tip size and hose length. What we should be looking at is the working PSI, with the air brush actually shooting paint, as that's the number that really counts as compared to the static pressure, which is just setting the psi but not using the air brush - there is a huge difference. 

 

[Bomber_County]

13 hours ago, GusMac said:

I'd back up the comments about the black base, Tamiya lacquer is a far better option. Never had any issues masking on Xtreme Metals with kabuki type tapes but Montex vinyl masks ruined the NMF I did on my P47,  leaving residue everywhere. 

Thanks Gus, I’ll remember about the Montex for the future…..I’m trying to source the LP1 now…..

[Bomber_County]

2 hours ago, CANicoll said:

Phil,

Sorry to hear of all the trials and tribulations you are having with this build.  Ugh!!!  I have the ZM P-51D to build.  I have used oven cleaner to remove paint on a build.  It is nasty stuff (don't get it on anything metal!) but it really does work without damaging the plastic.

Might be too late to suggest, but have you tried the Vallejo Metal Color finishes?  They are not lacquer and I've found they shoot really well.  I have had no lifting problems over the Vallejo primers, too. Especially the Vallejo Gloss black primer.  I have done Alclad and MRP and love those paints but if you are having prep problems, maybe an easier route is called for?

That said, Peter is an ace at finishes so following his recommendations is never a bad strategy.  I usually shoot Alclad a about 7 psi at the airbrush but I always do a 'test shoot' on an old model (an 1/48 P-51D which I often clean/strip to keep the layers down) before applying to a build just to check the mixture and pressure.

Good luck and can't wait to see how this turns out for you.

Chris

Thanks Chris, I use Vallejo predominantly but had a brain fade and bought nearly the whole range of Xtreme Metals. In retrospect I’d wish I’d bought the Vallejo Metal Colour instead. The base coat is stuck on like glue now so I’m not even oven cleaner will fetch it off. The scheme I’ve decided on is an OD upper which I have some Xtracolour in OD and their faded OD. U/S I could try another Xtreme Metal ………

[Bomber_County]

13 hours ago, Peterpools said:

Phil

There really isn't any differences in how U shoot Alclad Xtreme Metals

1. Super smooth black base

2. Shake the bottle well to be sure the pigments are all in suspension and nothing is still clinking to the bottom of the bottle.

3. I set my compressor at 1.5 bars or around 12-15 psi, which is not the working pressure, which is less.

4. Light easy mist coats and gradually build up the reflected shine/NMF. 

5. If the NMF is rough and grainy and all of the above was done correctly, the air brush might be too far from the model surface and the Alclad and Xtreme Metal might be drying before it reaches the model's surface.

Hope this helps.

I think to far away from the surface is the cause, I did all of the other steps……

[Peterpools]

Phil

Always so many possibilities but just do a bit of testing at different distances and you'll know for sure. 🤞