GWH Hawk 81C AVG decals. 02/18/23

[Clunkmeister]

Carl, I did the same as you.  I just checked the very last place I expected to find the answer: the kit decals. 
Amazingly, the kit decals feature a lower roundel that is noticeably larger get diameter than the upper decals, and noticeably larger than the EagleCal decals, which feature roundels all the same size. 
As the lower roundels were out of the sun and faded little if any, I feel comfortable trying them. 
Unfortunately, I’m not positive on the color. It almost appears too dark. 

[Peterpools]

Ernie and Carl

I almost never go back and visit a finished build but the issue of the Chinese roundels was an issue I did discuss on my build. My entire discussion was based on the fact the color decal/paint scheme sheets included with the kit showed the upper wing roundel as the larger and in a faded blue color and the underside decal, should be the smaller roundel and a dark blue. The decal sheet is just reversed of the colored decal paint scheme sheets. I never based my comments on which was right or wrong, only they didn't match. GWH either didn't do their homework or QC was asleep at the switch.  

I chose to leave mine as is as this seemed to be a matter of discussion where there isn't a definitive answer and not worth messing around with the finish.

 

[BlrwestSiR]

Ernie, to my Mk1 eyeball, the colour for the lower markings look ok. I grew up in a household full of Nationalist stuff (my dad was a staunch KMT supporter) and they're close to what I recall. 

[Peterpools]

Carl and Ernie

Have you ever noticed in most kit reviews, the discussion on decals never seems to focus on accuracy but rather registration. Seems the reviewers might need to spend time on accuracy a bit more. Just feel at this stage of the build, leaving the decals alone and moving on is the best course of action. Only real answer would been definitive photographs of the actual aircraft, top and bottom and most likely, they do not exist, so what's correct - I haven't a clue.

 

 

 

[Clunkmeister]

1 hour ago, Peterpools said:

Carl and Ernie

Have you ever noticed in most kit reviews, the discussion on decals never seems to focus on accuracy but rather registration. Seems the reviewers might need to spend time on accuracy a bit more. Just feel at this stage of the build, leaving the decals alone and moving on is the best course of action. Only real answer would been definitive photographs of the actual aircraft, top and bottom and most likely, they do not exist, so what's correct - I haven't a clue.

 

 

 

Which is why I go back to these two pictures. My build using EagleCal lower markings, and an actual slightly used Hawk 81 of the AVG. 

To my eye, the actual lower roundel from the Eagle sheet (on my model) is quite a bit smaller than depicted on the bent airplane.  Also, at least according to pictures, the lower roundel is noticeably larger than the upper. I will continue looking online to see if I can find a definitive straight on view of the upper wing roundel.  And if Carl feels that the color is good, I’ll use it, as it’s a big enough issue to me to warrant me using the kit roundels on the lower surfaces. Plus, I haven’t sealed it in place yet so removing the Eagle decals is simple and easy. If my build was all but finished as is peter’s is, I’d not go there.   

Obviously, everyone has their bugaboos, and to me this is important enough to my way of thinking that I’ll take the time to do it  I’m anal enough where it would bug me forevermore  

Like many say, scale modeling, lacking exact references and firsthand witnesses, one rolls the dice and in the end, it’s in the eye of the builder  

Peter, I couldn’t agree more regarding decal research. I think back to Kitty Hawk  decent plastic, but a gorgeous set of in register decals so riddled with errors as to be a joke.  And Tamiya’s famous 1/32” thick decals  🤣✅

[Clunkmeister]

OK guys. I’m happy. These are the kit lower decals. I like these much, much, much more. And as Carl said, it looks right. I’ll take Carl’s knowledge on Nationalist Chinese markings as fact. When you have family that has and is involved, that’s good enough for me. 
The new decals are on the top, followed by the original picture again, and finally, the Eagle decals. 
The difference is obvious. 
Yes, ai keep posting the same picture of the “gently used” Tomahawk simply to avoid people having to keep scrolling back  I am MUCH happier with the lower roundel now  

[Clunkmeister]

Aaaand I dropped the made up rubber tailwheel with hub attached, And it bounced a rolled off into parts unknown…

😡🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤡

[Martinnfb]

I think the lower insignia is bang on. 

Dropping something into the unknown = The most annoying moment in history of the man kind.

 

[Clunkmeister]

🤣

[BlrwestSiR]

Comparing the two now, the kit one is definitely better. 

The worst part about dropping something is when you find it after you've given up and the the build is finished. 

[HubertB]

it's looking good, and better than before, Ernie ! Now you need to make the kit look like your reference pic, so you do not have to bother about a missing tailwheel

Hubert

[Peterpools]

Ernie

The Chines roundel on the lower wing now is so very close to the photograph being used and it is the perfect resource pic; It's a keeper and way to go. Carl said it just perfectly about the tailwheel - it will show up in time after having caused all sorts of aggravation and requiring a replacement which would have been accomplished way before, so you can finish the P-40. 

I tip my hat as you kept on digging and found the correct solution. My only question, why couldn't GWH have done the same, followed through and then printed the decals as per their research and color drawings?

 

[Clunkmeister]

Peter, the decal being used now IS the kit’s lower wing roundel, as supplied by GWH.

The Eagle Editions lower Chinese roundels are too small. That’s what I originally used and pulled the bottom ones off. As far as I can see, the rest of the Eaagle Editions decals are correct, though. And Cutting Edge decals are wrong, just like the Eagle Editions decals.  The only AM who got it right was Montex. 

[Peterpools]

Ernie, just went and took a look at my P-40 and you are absolutely correct, the lower roundels are correct and the upper is too small. I also never believed the story on why the lower roundels are so dark with the kit decals. As far as I'm concerned, GWH; poor follow on the research and zero QC on the decals. 

 

 

[Clunkmeister]

12 minutes ago, Peterpools said:

Ernie, just went and took a look at my P-40 and you are absolutely correct, the lower roundels are correct and the upper is too small. I also never believed the story on why the lower roundels are so dark with the kit decals. As far as I'm concerned, GWH; poor follow on the research and zero QC on the decals. 

 

 

Carl, whose family is very familiar with the Nationalist Chinese, stated that the color on the lower roundels seems spot on.

As far as the upper roundels go, I don’t have a clear straight on picture of the upper wing surface of an original in service AVG Tomahawk, so I can’t comment on the uppers. I’m not going to defend GWH, but just the fact that pretty much ALL restorations in recognized Military operated museums show the upper roundel size as the size included in the kit, and as issued by Eagle, Montex, and CE, I will assume the uppers are sized correctly.

The uppers are lighter in color simply because eye witnesses universally stated that the blue on the upper Chinese roundels, when exposed to the direct sun and rain, very rapidly faded to a much lighter, faded blue.  And THAT, to me is where the interpretation comes in.

What I don’t like about the GWH decals is that they missed the mark on a few of the shark mouth versions. But until finding out in this build, I had no idea that the shark mouths were painted freehand, and all of them differed from each other

[Peterpools]

Ernie

Whether GWH has then right or wrong isn't the issue for me. The issue is the decals don't match the decal placement guide; one is right and one is wrong as per the kit and not whether the sizes are actually correct. That's a QC issue. For me, I just wanted to get it right as per the kit.

 

[Clunkmeister]

2 hours ago, Peterpools said:

Ernie

Whether GWH has then right or wrong isn't the issue for me. The issue is the decals don't match the decal placement guide; one is right and one is wrong as per the kit and not whether the sizes are actually correct. That's a QC issue. For me, I just wanted to get it right as per the kit.

 

 

OK yes, I understand now.  I'm a touch slow at times.

What absolutely stuns ,e is how there so little actual hard information out there on such a famous and thoroughly documented Fighter Group.  

[Peterpools]

Ernie, I'm old and slow 😉

 

[Clunkmeister]

Slowly getting there. Time to start dirtying her up. 

[BlrwestSiR]

Definitely has the look. 

I wonder if the lack of documentation with the AVG has to do with the theatre of war. CBI is so often overlooked, the carrier battles and island hooping campaigns definitely made more headlines. 

[Clunkmeister]

15 minutes ago, BlrwestSiR said:

Definitely has the look. 

I wonder if the lack of documentation with the AVG has to do with the theatre of war. CBI is so often overlooked, the carrier battles and island hooping campaigns definitely made more headlines. 

Carl, by the time I’m done with it, it’ll be filthy and 27 different colors.   The AVG were the American Heroes at a time when the USA and Britain were reeling from continuous losses. Britain was still in danger of an invasion by sea, U-boats and surface raiders were sinking tonnage in en ever increasing amount, Pearl Harbor was still a smoking ruin, the Philippines were falling, Hong Kong fell, Australia was a definite possibility, and along came a bunch of crazy yanks with their fearsome mounts, proving that the Japanese could be beaten.

There was all kinds of documentation, but precious little close ups of the planes themselves.

As for the CBI, it was a miserable place to serve, and the big stories were in the European theatre. Europeans killing each other. Much closer to home than some steaming jungle on the other side of the world. 
It was an odd war, where some of the most fearsome aircraft were P-51A’s, P-40s, and B-25 gunships. Those aircraft were cast offs in other theatres, but were devastatingly effective in the CBI.  The best bomber by far was the B-24, and transport was provided by C-46s.  Pretty much the exact opposite of the European war. 

[Lusitanian]

On 2/19/2023 at 3:44 PM, Peterpools said:

Carl and Ernie

Have you ever noticed in most kit reviews, the discussion on decals never seems to focus on accuracy but rather registration. Seems the reviewers might need to spend time on accuracy a bit more.

 

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I don’t ever start actually drawing decals until I’ve done a LOT of research.  I’ve had to re-draw far too much and learned my lesson.  So unless the reviewer of a decal has done a LOT of research, they likely simply have no clue how accurate or inaccurate they are.  The exact same thing can be said of the kit itself.  The recent hubbub over the Meng 1/48 F-4 kits is a prime example:  yes, it looks like a wonderful kit - unless you know very much about the F-4.  Then it’s a half-hearted “C+” at best.

[Clunkmeister]

And so it begins. Let’s trash this thing. 

[Clunkmeister]

6 hours ago, Lusitanian said:

 

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I don’t ever start actually drawing decals until I’ve done a LOT of research.  I’ve had to re-draw far too much and learned my lesson.  So unless the reviewer of a decal has done a LOT of research, they likely simply have no clue how accurate or inaccurate they are.  The exact same thing can be said of the kit itself.  The recent hubbub over the Meng 1/48 F-4 kits is a prime example:  yes, it looks like a wonderful kit - unless you know very much about the F-4.  Then it’s a half-hearted “C+” at best.

I agree with you there.  There are a lot of well respected decal drawers out there who have gotten it very wrong. But such is the model industry. The only decals are truly trust are Eli Raphael’s Zotz brand and Jerry Crandall’s Luftwaffe stuff. Some of the Fündecal line seems decent enough as well

[Peterpools]

Ernie

Decals look good and I'm hoping you don't go overboard on the weathering.