Just a thought on PE details.

[GazzaS]

Don't get me wrong...  I love some PE details.  Especially IP's and stuff on the side of the cockpit.  I really take no pleasure in cockpit detailing.  I'm not a steady hand when it comes to painting and it seems that no matter how much I look, the details in the model don't seem to match the images I find when I Google.  I understand that detail gets left off for a number of reasons including space. 

I'm building a kit that has a sweet-looking Eduard IP.  But there's no PE for the left and right hand consoles....  so I have to paint them myself.  Not happy about that.  A nice IP essentially hidden once installed flanked by two side panels with dodgy detail with my dodgy painting.  What's the point?  Even if I left the canopy open, you'd still want a dentist's reflector to see that sweet IP with it's PE levers and pull handles lovingly glued in by clumsy hands.

The PE IP is quite a wonder.  I'm pretty sure it was measured from a real IP from a museum aircraft.  It was a devil to get in, though.  I had to remove about a scale foot of interior plastic just to get it inside.  I could almost read through the material that was left on both sides of the fuselage.  So, I guess you could call that a successful installation.  But I was nervous enough that I set aside the Dremel and finished with files and sandpaper.

Then there's seat belts.  Really lovely looking PE belts.  But you cannot anneal them.  And I always fear chipping off the paint by aggressive bending.  I used my first HGW belts a month or so ago.  Really loved them!  But past PE belt results have never left me satisfied.  The springiness in the PE belts made them hard for me to get to stick in all of the right places.  Eventually I end up with belts that are stuck in one place and 'levitating' at the other end.

 

Anyway...  felt like grumbling about my least favorite process in aircraft modelling.  Maybe you guys have some cool ideas that I haven't thought of?

 

Gaz

[Wumm]

It is the age-old dilemma...

Taking what one sees in the Mind's eye, and re-creating in actual form. Practice makes perfect Gaz, that's the only advice I can offer.

FWIW, I detest p/e too.

S

 

[[CAT]CplSlade]

Some I don't mind, but I'm not a fan of having a PE part as the only option, especially if it is a part you can't continue the build without using. I also hate the thin pieces you have to stand on edge with virtually no contact surface for the CA to bond to. If you use enough to hold it, then you have a small clump of dried CA on the points of contact.

My last tortuous encounter was the basket on the back of the Dragon Marder III H.

[BlrwestSiR]

I've got a love/hate relationship with PE bits. Sometimes it's fine and other times I want to know why I even bothered. Which is why I gave up on the Part PE set for my Mi-24 build. 

I also hate when they're glued in place only to have them break off and go flying into the ether. 

For PE belts, the new Eduard Steel ones aren't bad. They're much more flexible compared to the brass ones but they can still peel off. Plus they're only painted on one side. 

Otherwise I'm much happier with the fabric belts either from Wako or HGW. The Wako buckles are even laid out to allow you to thread the belts through while they're still attached to the fret. 

Carl

[smitty44]

Cockpits are, by far, my favorite part of modeling besides taking the shrink wrap off a new kit. A couple things. Instead of painting console details why don't you grab a silver and a gray pencil, lightly run them over the switches etc., and voila! PE seatbelts are the scourge of all that is enjoyable about cockpit detailing, Quickboost generally has a seat with molded on belts to match. Downside to nice Eduard IP's is they are almost always the wrong color.

[GazzaS]

8 hours ago, [CAT]CplSlade said:

Some I don't mind, but I'm not a fan of having a PE part as the only option, especially if it is a part you can't continue the build without using. If you use enough to hold it, then you have a small clump of dried CA on the points of contact.

My last tortuous encounter was the basket on the back of the Dragon Marder III H.

I know that Marder kit well!  I was so excited to build that kit, then all of the fun faded into a brass-colored haze of torturous and poorly bent tool clips followed by the aforementioned basket and clips to mount it to the engine deck.

 

"I also hate the thin pieces you have to stand on edge with virtually no contact surface for the CA to bond to.":

  I have started reinforcing bonds with white glue once the CA is hardened.

[GazzaS]

7 hours ago, BlrwestSiR said:

I've got a love/hate relationship with PE bits. Sometimes it's fine and other times I want to know why I even bothered. Which is why I gave up on the Part PE set for my Mi-24 build. 

I also hate when they're glued in place only to have them break off and go flying into the ether. 

For PE belts, the new Eduard Steel ones aren't bad. They're much more flexible compared to the brass ones but they can still peel off. Plus they're only painted on one side. 

Otherwise I'm much happier with the fabric belts either from Wako or HGW. The Wako buckles are even laid out to allow you to thread the belts through while they're still attached to the fret. 

Carl

I have to say that I have sent more brass into space than NASA.  Sometimes I don't even go looking for it.

[Old Dog]

Yes, I too have a love hate relationship with PE, I have found that since moving up to 1/32 that the older style Eduard panels are too one dimensional. The newer Yahu and Eduard Look ones are better but some what limited in availability. I have a couple of Eduard panels (for the 190 I think) that include separate bezels for the instruments and I cringe at even starting those as the IP could take longer to do than the rest of the kit with my shaky hands. 

One thing I've found helpful, especially for those pesky levers than are almost always a butt joint is to leave the little connecting piece at the bottom attached to the lever and drilling a small hole for it to fit into so it has something other than the glue to help support it. On multi engine consoles cutting a slot with a JLC saw for the levers to fit into also works a treat.

[Bomber_County]

The Marder H was a complete...........anyway, the Tiger I am doing for the GB has mountains of PE. The one thing I don’t understand is they say put an axe on two upstands and then have the head in a cover fixed hard to the body of the vehicle. To my mind the axe would be at 15 to 30 dog to horizontal. Not scale like then!.....

[DocRob]

Generally spoken, as an ex engineer, I love working with metal, be it white metal for gears or be it PE.
For many subassemblies on armor kits, I love the stuff, as it reproduces the sheet thinness very accurate and you can dent and deform it in a very natural way. Bigger parts are better to solder to get a good bond.

In aircraft modelling I have mixed feelings, as I like to reproduce very accurate flaps with PE. It's a pain, but no pain no gain, it is the best way to have the necessary sheet appearance.
For cockpits I start to go away from pre painted PE, because on some of my last builds the Colour rendition was not good and hard to adapt Colour wise and sometimes the PE IP's were rasterized and didn't fit too well. Generally spoken, I'm a little bored by too many presentations of cockpits with pre painted PE, be it my own builds or others. Generally spoken, pure IP panels often look too flat for my liking. On the other hand, I received some Yahu panels lately which look great. The Colour rendition looks accurate, bezel details are great and they are matte. On many aircraft kits I built lately, the provided plastic parts for panels and IP's were too soft in detail to paint them nicely, dog. 

The best way of represent cockpit parts like panels and IP is resin. These parts hand painted look much more 3D and are better adapted into the cockpit. Another mostly sufficient  way is the Tamiya/Trumpeter approach with plastic pars over film or decal. Proper painted this often looks great. 

For seat belts to me HGW's paper belts are the best, detail wise, and almost a must in 1/32, for 1/48 pre painted steel is sufficient. I have to admit, that I'm always afraid bending these, but never actually had problems with flaking Colour.

I don't know which kit bugged you, but yeah, PE tends to let the emotions fly high, be it good, after you accomplished great stuff with it or be it bad, after applying 23 of 24 previously individual bended parts and loose the last one to the carpet monster.

As a verdict, all of this could be written about resin, decals, white metal, vac canopies, foiling  or paints and weathering products with different arguments. In the end it is our decision how to reproduce and which materials we use.

Cheers Rob

 

[BlrwestSiR]

9 hours ago, GazzaS said:

know that Marder kit well!  I was so excited to build that kit, then all of the fun faded into a brass-colored haze of torturous and poorly bent tool clips followed by the aforementioned basket and clips to mount it to the engine deck.

I think I had the same kit. And binned it too after all the PE work went pear shaped. Or at least an origami folded pear shape.

[GazzaS]

7 hours ago, BlrwestSiR said:

I think I had the same kit. And binned it too after all the PE work went pear shaped. Or at least an origami folded pear shape.

Oh how tragic!  To bin such a lovely kit!  I know the PE was a PITA...  but I had to finish, because the Marder III had been something I wanted to build since I was a teen.  Mine wasn't pretty...  but here it is:

I never got the PE basket to sit perfect with all of the plastic around it.  I've got a Tristar IIIM in my stash, too.

[[CAT]CplSlade]

Well, since we're doing that:

Getting those two plastic pieces on either side to stay horizontal until they dried and be at the correct height for the PE basket was also a pain. I think they could have done the basket in styrene seeing as how they still cast antenna and other long, thin narrow bits that way.

I know some people add a bit of white glue to hold them on, but sometimes that glue leaves a visible ridge under the paint that is off-putting to me. I have put Future on some parts to kind of hold smaller pieces in place but they cannot handle stress any better.

The PE I don't mind? Schurtzen, because I can just hang them off the supports. None of mine are glued on.

[BlrwestSiR]

That's the one. I had so much trouble trying to use CA I tried to solder things. Which only made it worse. I may still have a piece or two of it around. 

[[CAT]CplSlade]

I have a Trumpeter railroad piece that has a Flak 38 turret on it, and the gun shield is made of several pieces of PE which simply would not hold together with CA only; it really needs soldering.

I bought myself an iron so I guess I'm going to try and learn how to do it. Or I could buy a standalone Flak 38 from Dragon or Tristar and substitute it. But I hate taking the coward's way out.

[GazzaS]

I really, really hate binning kits.  But I know sometimes there's no way out.  I'll avoid as much PE as possible.  But I am determined to master it or complete as many kits as I have.  I recently received 3 large fender sets from Voyager for Pz III and IV/StuG's.   But looking at the directions scared me half to death.  Haven't touched it since.

[DocRob]

When I feel bad about an actual PE-project I browse through my extras for my 251 and start to get a more relaxed approach to the PE in front of me, even some dignity. This will be a true test of passion, I'm sure, but I will do it one day and in the end I can state, that there is more metal in the build than plastic. Actually the whole upper part will be made of PE and this will need to be soldered.

Cheers Rob

[GazzaS]

2 hours ago, DocRob said:

When I feel bad about an actual PE-project I browse through my extras for my 251 and start to get a more relaxed approach to the PE in front of me, even some dignity. This will be a true test of passion, I'm sure, but I will do it one day and in the end I can state, that there is more metal in the build than plastic. Actually the whole upper part will be made of PE and this will need to be soldered.

Cheers Rob

 

I would much rather solder than rely on fickle CA.  Had it not been for my 'recent discovery' of accelerator, I might have even more tempted to avoid it completely.  Now, it's my number 1 filler.  But I am still gonna back up as much as possible with a white glue.  I've been using canopy glue because it's a little bit thicker and a little bit more tacky than your garden variety white glue.