B-17 in mid-air

[JohnB]

Happened this afternoon at the Wings over Dallas airshow. Mid air with what I THINK is a P-63. Both destroyed and everyone killed as far as I know right now.

[ScottsGT]

Horrible.  

[Martinnfb]

 

[Martinnfb]

https://www.facebook.com/1629675848/videos/5395499170553877

 

[Peterpools]

Horrible news 😪

 

[GazzaS]

Too many planes in a small space at low level.  Just an accident waiting to happen.  I imagine the NTSB and FAA will have a scathing report on this.

[JohnB]

Probably Gaz. It looked to me the P-61 pilot never saw the B-17 until impact if then.

[CANicoll]

The B-17 looked like it was simply flying around and from the angle of the P-63, I don't think he ever saw the B-17.   This picture shows the devastation of the impact.    The P-63 fuselage is upper left but one of its wings is shown under the Elevator of the B-17 - the P-63's wheel is coming out of the wing.  The P-63 hit so close to the B-17 cockpit that I wonder if the B-17s's pilots were instantly impacted.  Looks like the P-63 split behind the engine.  Just horrific.

[nmayhew]

For those interested in very even handed professionally done takes on these things, check out Juan Brown’s YouTube channel ‘Blancolirio’.

I think I’ve touted him before on here but he’s ex US military- first fighter pilot, then heavy transport, and currently an airline pilot. 
 

he’s very good at explaining things to ‘non-flyers’, but if you know your stuff you’ll also realise he does too I think. 
 

anyway, he always follows up on crashes so you’ll get his take on the initial NTSB report, as well as their final one (which may be years away).

here’s his initial take on things - he shows that the P-63 likely never saw the B-17, but starts to go into potentially how things got into that position in the first place (which I guess is really the nub of things).

worth a watch

YouTube link to the vid

[Peterpools]

Just horrendous. and I know the FAA upon the NTSB final report, will change the rules so this type of accident and loss of life will not happen again.

I remember when there was a bad crash at an air show years ago and in those days, aircraft were allowed to fly towards and over the spectators and the injuries were very bad. I don't remember if anyone died but FAA changed the rules and now there is no flying over or towards the spectators at a certain distance, where the direction of flight is parallel to the stands.

 

  

[BradG]

I looked at the NTSB report this morning, it seems as though the airshow was running the aircraft past the crowd in two lines;  the slower aircraft on a line that ran parallel from the crowd at 500ft distance, while the faster aircraft were inside this at a 1000ft line. It appears that the Air Boss, on the fatal pass, called for the faster aircraft, namely the 3 ship formation of 2 Mustangs and the P-63, to fall into a line astern formation, cross in front of the slower aircraft and pass the crowd on the 500ft line. At the same time the slower aircraft were cleared to follow the 1000ft line. 

You can see this in the film of the accident when the two mustangs pass in front of the Fortress. I don't know if this was in the plans of the airshow or not, but it seem that crossing the two flight plans, combined with the fact the P-63 would have lost sight of the Fortress in the left hand turn while probably assuming he was clear to follow the 500ft line, has caused this accident. I feel that there may be some lawsuits resulting from this accident. 

[Clunkmeister]

Hard to say. I saw that as well, and the consensus is that the P-63 somehow got too far behind the Mustangs and was trying to catch up.  Hence his blistering speed. I was a always under the impression that bombers stayed AAF 500 ft, and fighters stayed at 1000 ft. As far as how the P-63 got so badly out of position, we’ll never know now, unless the Air Boss told him to step on it to get back in formation. That’ll come out soon enough I expect. Hindsight is always 20/20, and like you said, fingers are pointing everywhere.
As for us here in Texas, we lost a State Treasure in Texas Raiders. Several of us have committed long term to the refurbishment of another Fort, and it’s going to be needed. The fighters might be the cool draw for many, but the bombers pay the bills with their goodwill tours, school walk through, and ride programs.  

Without the bombers running, CAF would never be able to afford what it does. 

[BradG]

Does the CAF have another Fortress project or will the simply look to rebuild Texas Raiders? 

[Peterpools]

On 11/14/2022 at 9:59 PM, CANicoll said:

The B-17 looked like it was simply flying around and from the angle of the P-63, I don't think he ever saw the B-17.   This picture shows the devastation of the impact.    The P-63 fuselage is upper left but one of its wings is shown under the Elevator of the B-17 - the P-63's wheel is coming out of the wing.  The P-63 hit so close to the B-17 cockpit that I wonder if the B-17s's pilots were instantly impacted.  Looks like the P-63 split behind the engine.  Just horrific.

Absolutely devastating .. our hearts go out to all who lost their lives. RIP as you fly west.

 

[Clunkmeister]

6 hours ago, BradG said:

Does the CAF have another Fortress project or will the simply look to rebuild Texas Raiders? 

TR is destroyed. They’ll source another, but from where, I have no idea. Most likely an old firebomber airframe, but even they are getting tougher to find. 

[CANicoll]

8 hours ago, Clunkmeister said:

Hard to say. I saw that as well, and the consensus is that the P-63 somehow got too far behind the Mustangs and was trying to catch up.  Hence his blistering speed. I was a always under the impression that bombers stayed AAF 500 ft, and fighters stayed at 1000 ft. As far as how the P-63 got so badly out of position, we’ll never know now, unless the Air Boss told him to step on it to get back in formation. That’ll come out soon enough I expect. Hindsight is always 20/20, and like you said, fingers are pointing everywhere.
As for us here in Texas, we lost a State Treasure in Texas Raiders. Several of us have committed long term to the refurbishment of another Fort, and it’s going to be needed. The fighters might be the cool draw for many, but the bombers pay the bills with their goodwill tours, school walk through, and ride programs.  

Without the bombers running, CAF would never be able to afford what it does. 

There was some talk of video of something hitting the P-63 shortly before it changed direction and impacted the B-17.  Or something coming off the P-63.  Heard any more about that?

[Clunkmeister]

6 hours ago, CANicoll said:

There was some talk of video of something hitting the P-63 shortly before it changed direction and impacted the B-17.  Or something coming off the P-63.  Heard any more about that?

No I haven’t. So far, it’s pretty straight forward. The Air Boss asked both streams to cross each other, with the fighters passing in front of the bombers.  The P-63 pilot lost situational awareness and never saw the B-17.  That’s what the prelim reports say, at least. Hopefully there isn’t a leap to drastic and draconian rule making. 
 

In my personal opinion, there were way too many airplanes in way too small a space. When you add in showlines, and mix different performance levels of aircraft, it’s a recipe for the unexpected. 

[CANicoll]

Human error (the show director for his direction and the pilot for not knowing what was in front of him).  So sad all around.