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109E7


sluggo
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I'd like to use this scheme for the 1:24 Airfix kit I've been hacking on forever. I'd appreciate the insight and opinions of the experts here prior to beginning the painting process.

I have made some observations below using the photos as reference.

This bird is alleged to have belonged to 4./sch lg2. If that is true it should have a white call letter and a 04 yellow nose and rudder along with the mouse emblem on a blue disc.

post-1464-0-55523700-1384100735.thumb.jpg.3f74c988511aac6fd0d09c29e43ea30c.jpg
 

This photo is same aircraft but is mistakenly horizontally flipped and claimed to be "Yellow 2". This is the only orientation I could find for this image on the interweb.

destroyed_Bf_109_yellow_2.thumb.jpg.ec2e1452d5a417a2e0b3655135935096.jpg

Here is the picture oriented properly after a trip through Photoshop. As you can see there is no intake so this has to be the starboard side which also turns the weirdest "2" ever into an S and better fits with the black triangle.

 yellow_S.thumb.jpg.53ea72792af776bd553ce32ea8a2167a.jpg

After studying these pictures for a while it is my opinion I am looking at Black Triangle + Yellow S. Here's my reasoning.

  1. The S on the fuselage is darker than white but not dark enough to be blue, red, green, etc.
  2. The disc behind the mouse is too light to be blue as it would if it was a 4./sch lg2 bird.
  3. All the photos seem to indicate the nose is white, particularly the first photo.
  4. I don't see any way to confirm weather it is an E4 or E7 though I did see it referred to as an E7 on a couple captions.

Please share your thoughts.

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Further research has lead me to these conclusions.

  • 4./SCH  LG2 in fact used a RLM 04 Yellow disc behind the mouse.
  • 4./SCH LG2 painted the cowl and rudder RLM 27 Yellow which explains why it is lighter than the color of the disc.
  • I can find nothing to refute that the call letter "S" is any color other than white.

This photo of an E4 from the same group seems to support the above conclusions and also seems to verify that the spinner is white/blue/white/black-green1656218755_Messerschmitt-Bf-109E4B-4.(S)LG2-carring-a-4x50kg-bomb-Eastern-Front-1941-01(1).thumb.jpg.15c607d62de4a97bae713ecc92b42658.jpg 

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Interesting pics, sluggo.  The only positive conclusion I can see from those pics is that that E7 is truly trashed. As in junk.

I agree with you on the white S,  the yellow disc? Hmmmm. I don’t think I’m buying the yellow theory. I look at human nature rather than regulation. Yellow nose, so what artist in his right mind would go through the trouble to paint yellow backed art on an already yellow surface. Artists are brggarts just like us, they want their art to stand out. But blue?  Could be. I’d say it’s a whole lot more likely than yellow  my .02, but that’s why I’m no historian. But typical Galland style maus other than that. LOL

  

150CEB1B-AF32-4037-9497-47E9A948C867.jpeg

Look at Yellow 13 here. The 13 seems dark, but is accepted as yellow. And the shield background here is well known to be yellow

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I don't disagree with your artist theory in any way. The yellow on yellow was far harder for me to get behind than the white S. I actually hoped to prove the disc to be RLM 24 Blue.

That is until I ran across 2 RAF crash reports for planes from the .4/LG2 and they both describe the markings the same except one does not call out the colors on the spinner.

284027274_Messerschmitt-Bf-109E4B-4.(S)LG2-(N)-Josef-Harmeling-crash-landed-Essex-France-1940-0C.thumb.jpg.ab7a825ae7bc95beb696dfaa82b4ef9d.jpg

Obviously, whoever drew this profile did not consider that the cowl could have been RLM 27 Yellow. I know sometimes RAF crash reports were a little sketchy but this one seems pretty detailed.

And then there is this passage I ran across in a discussion specifically about the emblem, it's origins and whether or not it existed before Galland adopted and modified it by sticking a cigar in the mouse's mouth and dropping the disc background.

Quote

I believe that Galland started the war as StaKap of 5.(S)/LG2 and took over as StaKap of 4 staffel when the GruppenKommodore was killed in mid September and Otto Weiss (the original StaKap of 4.(S)/LG2) took over. Photos from a private collection that I've seen, show Hs123s of 5.(S)/LG2 taken just before or at the very beginning of the Polish Camaign with 5.(S)/LG2's emblem and II.(S)/LG2's modified camouflage scheme. I would guess, therefore, that 4.(S)/LG2 (and 6.(S)/LG2) also had their emblems before the war started, ie before Galland joined 4 staffel. Galland took this with him when he went to JG26, but deleted the background shield and added a cigar. He also had a, different, Mickey Mouse emblem on his He51 in Spain.

The majority of photos of 4.(S)/LG2 Hs123s published in books or on the internet that I have, show a light shield colour, though a few show a darker colour. Unfortunately, most are from the starboard side and only 3 that show the port side also show the octane triangle (known to be yellow). Of these 3, one shows both the shield and the octane triangle as a dark shade (presumeably an orthchromatic file), one seems to show the shield as dark and the octane triangle lighter though the quality of the image is poor, and the third, a photo of crashed L2+BM, seems to show both with a light colour, but the scan I have is small. From this and the written description from the RAF report, I would suggest that the colour of the shield of 4.(S)/LG2's emblem was yellow and not blue as has been assumed in the past.

My first recollection of this emblem was in Volume 1 of Karl Ries's 4 part series in the mid to late 60's. In it, it is shown with a blue background and labelled II/SG1 with a note saying that it arose from 4.(S)/LG2. Soon after Airfix released their 1/72 Bf109E with the blue emblem (I think ESCI's 1/48 Hs123 also included the blue emblem) and everybody, including myself, assumed it to be so. When II(S)/LG2 became SchG.1, the 4.(S)/LG2 emblem was kept for the whole Gruppe, but with the shield in the staffel colours. The Hs123s were initially transfered to the 4th staffel in the Gruppe which would have had a blue shield. Maybe this could explain it.

One other point, the yellow used for the engine cowling(RLM 27) was a different yellow to that used on the emblem(RLM 4). RLM4 would appear darker than RLM27.

And just so it's still a little muddy, apparently at some point, different Staffels within the group used different colored discs(referenced in the above passage). This is just a supposition on my part but I assume the call letter and disc color would match. But, this was after II(S)/LG2 became SchG.1.

LG_emblem.png.f1f88b9f91963d415c14b6960ddb17da.png

I have to rest my half dozen neurons for a bit........ 

 

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Oddly enough, in the same thread the excerpt above came from there was mention of  a guy specifically asking Galland what the origin/meaning of the mouse was and his reply was

Quote

"Well, I just liked Mickey Mouse, thats all!"

So, I agree our quest to discover the deep meaning of something turns out to be not so complex or meaningful more often than not. 

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12 hours ago, sluggo said:

Oddly enough, in the same thread the excerpt above came from there was mention of  a guy specifically asking Galland what the origin/meaning of the mouse was and his reply was

So, I agree our quest to discover the deep meaning of something turns out to be not so complex or meaningful more often than not. 

Exactly. He likes Mickey Mouse so he paints Mickey on his plane. 80 harsh later we’re tearing our hair out trying to figure out the hidden meaning “why”.

sometimes, guys will be guys and just do something ‘cause it’s cool.

But of all the guys from back then, Galland really fascinates me. He is a big enough hero as it is, but if he was with the Allies, there would have been Hollis Wood movies about him. (Typo on purpose) “Hollis Wood”. :)

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On 7/18/2019 at 4:50 PM, sluggo said:

LOL, kind of like my avatar..... Quick Draw McGraw was cool and his alter ego "El Kabong" was even cooler because he busted guitars over peoples heads.

Didn't get all the US cartoons over here in the UK when I was a kid, but I always loved Secret Squirrel. The eye holes in the hat just used to crack me up!

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I sat down and did the main artwork for the 109 and have all the big stuff ready to cut into masks.

The uncertainty of the color of the S, the emblem and the cowl are still buggin’ me.

So I made some color profiles and the desaturated them, then added some noise to mimic an aged and grainy photo. Compare to the photos in my first post.

 

Here is what I come up with:

Black Triangle + White S with cowl, rudder and wingtips painted RLM 27 Yellow and Emblem disc painted 04 Yellow as RAF crash reports describe other planes from 4.LG2

White_S.png.32445441e589c782c0ecb9200b696e12.png

Here it is desaturated: Not working for me.

White_S_desat.png.c2899b737edb4dc4030d2ea7bc2b0abf.png

 

 

Next up:
Black Triangle + Yellow S with cowl, rudder, call letter and wingtips painted RLM 27 Yellow and Emblem disc painted 04 Yellow as I assumed it might have looked. I liked this one.

Yellow_S.png.563d27b39ee023c36302370520ea8c89.png

Until……. desaturated and again I’m not sold.

Yellow_S_desat.png.4f6b1e01612ee090ddc79b942b3b0d0d.png

 

 

Next up:
Black Triangle + Blue S with cowl, rudder and wingtips painted RLM 04 Yellow and Emblem disc painted blue. Hmmmm.

Blue_S.png.1ab132b3f409ee4326f571a84e1a456c.png

Desaturated: A contender.

Blue_S_desat.png.88fa8e0df9f1db2013a504a3ed5f23ea.png

 

 

 

Next up:
Black Triangle + Yellow S with cowl, rudder and wingtips painted RLM 04 Yellow and Emblem disc painted blue. Even more Hmmmm.

Yellow_S_Blue_disc.png.008015f859a34d4c4c7780e24f841558.png

 

Desaturated. This one is close: Odds on favorite so far.

Yellow_S_Blue_disc_desat.png.5f840743be60f538a5316110b1dc2e0f.png

 

 

 

Next up:
Black Triangle + Blue S with cowl, rudder and wingtips painted RLM 21 White and Emblem disc painted Blue. There is evidence that the groups colors were used as the shield and call letter color on the eastern front after merging of groups.

Blue_S_White_Cowl.png.334ef61418683886a4242ff6d002f83a.png

Desaturated: Meh.....

Blue_S_White_Cowl_desat.png.1569df7882be3fc1076709829e0e86e1.png

 

 

 

Finally:
Black Triangle + Yellow S with cowl, rudder and wingtips painted RLM 21 White and Emblem disc painted Yellow.

Yellow_S_White_Cowl.png.f8de4e30e9237c299a3aac1cef5fef30.png

Desaturated:

Yellow_S_White_Cowl_desat.png.02021a5b72f1596e15ed88e591d69b96.png

 

I have pretty much chosen one but would like to hear other opinions. Feel free to share your thoughts.

 

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I love your process.  For me it's Blue 'S', Blue Circle, RLM 04 for all of the yellow, and the blue spinner disc.    All of the white cowl versions just scream "Wrong!" to me.

 

Gaz

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6 hours ago, GazzaS said:

I love your process.  For me it's Blue 'S', Blue Circle, RLM 04 for all of the yellow, and the blue spinner disc.    All of the white cowl versions just scream "Wrong!" to me.

 

Gaz

Agreed, but I had to do those to satisfy the OCD or left over rivet counter if you will. I have been pretty good not getting caught up in "paralysis by analysis" and just going with my gut while working on the last few builds but apparently there is a special reserve of AMS when it comes to German Aircraft.

There was Es (and other models) with their cowls and rudders painted white but it definitely does not fit in this case.

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6 hours ago, Wumm said:

Mickey Mouse wappen matches fuel triangle shade in first photo...RLM 04. Cowl is not stark enough for white, so for mine is RLM 27, as is the "S".

Note the far right depiction of the "A"s from this site, and the differences in the yellows particularly.

http://www.thelightfarm.com/cgi-bin/htmltutgen.py?content=01Sep2013

S

Thanks for the link. Interesting read, especially for someone who's not a camera buff. 

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Just to get a better idea how colors desaturate I took an image of a crappy color chart I found on the interweb and made a comparison. While not scientific, controlled or consideration made for ambient light source, it is pretty telling. Many colors we can differentiate look the same desaturated. It is particularly interesting what happened to 66 through 75.

RLM_Chart.thumb.png.9c4d8515751b4d2aeecadd8e74d7fbd1.png

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1 hour ago, sluggo said:

No. I started with an existing profile, then modified it in Photoshop. It's the same profile used earlier in the thread.

721001600_Messerschmitt-Bf-109E4B-4.(S)LG2-(N)-Josef-Harmeling-crash-landed-Essex-France-1940-0C.jpg.29c82177103685208b59fb3a308d2601.jpg

OH................. ok, I keep forgetting we can fiddle with stuff, BUT I WAS going to say, wow good job........ :rolleyes:........................ BUT....wow good job, the profiles you have 'adjusted' are really good...... thanks for being honest, you could have said you did them and I probably wouldn't have known otherwise...:thumbsup2:

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