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Roger's Large Scale RAAF/RAN Research thread


Artful69

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23 minutes ago, Clunkmeister said:

Rog,

I found the two big threads and I think I got them together. Feel free to mess with it or if you need anything else changed.

I didn’t move the looking for thread from the Traders Board, but if I missed any others, please let me know.

I expect you’ll modify the new title. :)

... I don't think you missed anything  ... Anything i posted in the trade section should remain there - but that reminds me! ... I'm no longer looking!!!

3 minutes ago, Clunkmeister said:

In Texas, this is a two holer ....

... Annnnnnnd the thread title will definately be changed now thanks Ern!!

1 minute ago, Clunkmeister said:

In all seriousness, I’m watching this closely. I believe Aussie and Canadian two seaters were quite similar, so I’m seeing what you arrive at.

... as Carl mentioned earlier ... we sold ours to them ... some lucky Cannuck pilot would have found the discarded chewing gum stuck under the IP and cigarette burn holes in the upholstery buy now ... watch out for the dodgy shift into 2nd gear :D ... I dunno whether they got any supplementary A/C from the Sates though?!?

Rog :)

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2 hours ago, Artful69 said:

So what's different with lacquers?? are they stinky oily things that take forever to clean up after or are they more like acrylic's??

Tell me about it ... They were the kings of 1/35 before Dragon started turning it on - so why don't we have a designated RLM colour range (instead of random colour names)?

Think of Lacquers as more like nail polish... Hard wearing, fast drying, goes streaky if you brush it on. Requires specific thinners and fast airbrush cleanup. They go on "hotter", so can react with enamels and ruin the finish, especially if applied over the top.

FWIW, I use Tamiya rattle can Lacquers for painting large areas on my kits, and have never had a reaction with Acrylics applied under or over.

RLM colours are Luftwaffe-specific, but are based on the RAL colour system. So RLM colours are not applicable to 1/35th scale armour, even though many of the Heer colours may have an RLM equivalent. Likewise, many RLM colours like Merrick's interpretation of RLM77 have equivalents in the BSC, FS and RAL ranges.

IMG_20200126_131228.thumb.jpg.1fbfb836d6bfa53d0e9a87eade2ac0b4.jpg

https://www.cybermodeler.com/color/rlm_matrix.shtml

You can easily do your Nut if you stress too much about colours. Learned this very quickly concentrating on Luftwaffe subjects.

S

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2 hours ago, Artful69 said:

So what's different with lacquers?? are they stinky oily things that take forever to clean up after or are they more like acrylic's??

Lacquer paint is definitely smellier than acrylic. Personally, I don't think they're as bad as enamels. They dry faster than acrylic paints do so no long drying times. Generally, they spray much nicer too as they have finer pigments.

Tamiya only started releasing lacquer paints last year. So they don't have a huge range of colours but they keep adding to it constantly. Compared to their acrylics, they are thinner in viscosity so need less thinning (if any).  For clean up, use lacquer thinner as water won't work.

Hope that helps. But ask if you have more questions.

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2 minutes ago, smitty44 said:

I went from acrylics to MRP. Paint smells, solvent smells, but the finish is unbelievable. Just moved painting operations to the garage...it is so worth it.

I am making the transition to lacquer, I have about 25 MRP paints now, I still have yet to do a project with them though. As it’s hard to get certain colors, they always seem to be sold out. But I do have a project coming up soon.

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2 minutes ago, 1to1scale said:

I am making the transition to lacquer, I have about 25 MRP paints now, I still have yet to do a project with them though. As it’s hard to get certain colors, they always seem to be sold out. But I do have a project coming up soon.

Where are you at again? Sprue Bros has a huge re stock scheduled Tuesday and I am preparing my list.

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On 1/26/2020 at 11:21 AM, Wumm said:

Think of Lacquers as more like nail polish... Hard wearing, fast drying, goes streaky if you brush it on. Requires specific thinners and fast airbrush cleanup. They go on "hotter", so can react with enamels and ruin the finish, especially if applied over the top.

FWIW, I use Tamiya rattle can Lacquers for painting large areas on my kits, and have never had a reaction with Acrylics applied under or over.

RLM colours are Luftwaffe-specific, but are based on the RAL colour system. So RLM colours are not applicable to 1/35th scale armour, even though many of the Heer colours may have an RLM equivalent. Likewise, many RLM colours like Merrick's interpretation of RLM77 have equivalents in the BSC, FS and RAL ranges.

https://www.cybermodeler.com/color/rlm_matrix.shtml

You can easily do your Nut if you stress too much about colours. Learned this very quickly concentrating on Luftwaffe subjects.

S

Talk about learning something new every day!! ... In 10+ years I have NEVER known that RLM was Luftwaffe specific!! ... I have shot loads of Tamiya acrylic paint at various Luftwaffe and Heer subjects over the years and didn't know there was a fundamental difference! It never, ever occurred to me. I'll try to relax on getting the colour perfect - but I'd like to get it believably close! ... Like I said ... I've usually just gone with the one unmixed Tamiya colour - near enough is good enough ... for me at least.

On 1/26/2020 at 11:39 AM, BlrwestSiR said:

Lacquer paint is definitely smellier than acrylic. Personally, I don't think they're as bad as enamels. They dry faster than acrylic paints do so no long drying times. Generally, they spray much nicer too as they have finer pigments.

Tamiya only started releasing lacquer paints last year. So they don't have a huge range of colours but they keep adding to it constantly. Compared to their acrylics, they are thinner in viscosity so need less thinning (if any).  For clean up, use lacquer thinner as water won't work.

Hope that helps. But ask if you have more questions.

The problem with no thinning is getting less bang for buck ... I can get a lot of coverage out of a 10ml bottle of Tamiya acrylic at present ... And my current feedback is that Mr.Hobby Acrylic's apply/finish a little better for about the same usage.

13 hours ago, smitty44 said:

I went from acrylics to MRP. Paint smells, solvent smells, but the finish is unbelievable. Just moved painting operations to the garage...it is so worth it.

The general impression I'm getting is that Lacquer paints apply/finish much better than acrylic's do ...

13 hours ago, smitty44 said:

At least you don't get treated like an idiot when asking such questions here...…... by the resident douchebag.

... Or multiple douchebags!! ... especially anyone going by the same initial's as mine! :rolleyes:

And I want to sincerely thank everyone for that!!!! ... the nature of the discussion here ... I have learned so much - without feeling like a complete dumbass!! ... All in such a small amount of time - thanks to the willingness of everyone to participate and offer up their own experiences and points of view without quarrelling with each other and getting snarky. 

_____________________________________

Thanks for the info on paint types, people ... I remember my experiences with enamels way back when ... and how everything seemed much more simple and less time-consuming with acrylics to the point of "I don't believe how easy this is!!" ... At the moment I'm leaning toward a Mr.Hobby acrylic swap-over - just going by experience and comfort level ... but I MAY - at some point - buy a set of Tamiya lacquer's to try on one model kit ... maybe before I do the swap?? ... I honestly don't know ... I'm a little worried about preparation/use/cleanup that may be involved with them at present ...

meanwhile ... the RAN A-4 is presenting a paint conundrum all its own ... at least I know I can GET a designated "FS" colour at this time. The "BS" colours are ... well ... BS!! ... running a search ...

These (both - I s%$# you not!!) came up under the same search for BS381C-697 (Light Admiralty Grey) ...

PT6wd0n.png

qsRtmxo.png

Now ... Just looking at colours here without ANY other reference point ... the second one would be "grey" ... you would think ... but against this (on the A-4) ?? - The light blue/grey sort of works better:

ZLHda52.jpg

This colour (BS381C-693) looks to be almost spot on:

XS97ORa.png

I figure if I can take a reasonably accurate swatch on my phone down to the local hobby store, I can work out what Paint colour will best suit from there.

Heres some more pic's I grabbed off the internet for consideration ... There is definitely a blue-ish tinge to the light grey ... whether it's as blue as the above paint swatch I'm not so sure?? Remember these photo's were taken at the latest in 1984-5 so there's the age factor coming in there.

yJCm7sZ.jpg

HE7y0Dd.jpg

GEXPp9E.jpg

auNA38Q.jpg

Rog :)

 

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13 hours ago, smitty44 said:

Where are you at again? Sprue Bros has a huge re stock scheduled Tuesday and I am preparing my list.

I’m in TN. I currently have all 4 of the SEA camo colors, and I have most all of the RLM colors except desert. I also have some USN WW2 and  60’s colors. But I need to fill in some holes, and need black, insignia white, a couple WW2 green colors. At this time I’m trying to fill in paints depending on my next 2 projects. So I’m slowly getting the paints I need, it helps tremendously that Sprue Bros carries them now. But they do sell out fast. 

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59 minutes ago, Artful69 said:

Talk about learning something new every day!! ... In 10+ years I have NEVER known that RLM was Luftwaffe specific!! ... I have shot loads of Tamiya acrylic paint at various Luftwaffe and Heer subjects over the years and didn't know there was a fundamental difference! It never, ever occurred to me. I'll try to relax on getting the colour perfect - but I'd like to get it believably close! ... Like I said ... I've usually just gone with the one unmixed Tamiya colour - near enough is good enough ... for me at least.

The problem with no thinning is getting less bang for buck ... I can get a lot of coverage out of a 10ml bottle of Tamiya acrylic at present ... And my current feedback is that Mr.Hobby Acrylic's apply/finish a little better for about the same usage.

The general impression I'm getting is that Lacquer paints apply/finish much better than acrylic's do ...

... Or multiple douchebags!! ... especially anyone going by the same initial's as mine! :rolleyes:

And I want to sincerely thank everyone for that!!!! ... the nature of the discussion here ... I have learned so much - without feeling like a complete dumbass!! ... All in such a small amount of time - thanks to the willingness of everyone to participate and offer up their own experiences and points of view without quarrelling with each other and getting snarky. 

_____________________________________

Thanks for the info on paint types, people ... I remember my experiences with enamels way back when ... and how everything seemed much more simple and less time-consuming with acrylics to the point of "I don't believe how easy this is!!" ... At the moment I'm leaning toward a Mr.Hobby acrylic swap-over - just going by experience and comfort level ... but I MAY - at some point - buy a set of Tamiya lacquer's to try on one model kit ... maybe before I do the swap?? ... I honestly don't know ... I'm a little worried about preparation/use/cleanup that may be involved with them at present ...meanwhile ... the RAN A-4 is presenting a paint conundrum all its own ... at least I know I can GET a designated "FS" colour at this time. The "BS" colours are ... well ... BS!! ... running a search ...These (both - I s%$# you not!!) came up under the same search for BS381C-697 (Light

Now ... Just looking at colours here without ANY other reference point ... the second one would be "grey" ... you would think ... but against this (on the A-4) ?? - The light blue/grey sort of works better:

ZLHda52.jpgThis colour (BS381C-693) looks to be almost spot

I figure if I can take a reasonably accurate swatch on my phone down to the local hobby store, I can work out what Paint colour will best suit from there.

Rog :)

 

Those are easy colors to get, they are the same colors as early F-18s. And same era F-14s. And I’ll let you in on a secret, I use whatever color I think is right, not what the instructions, or the plastic nazis tell me. I have never had anyone tell me I used the wrong colors on a model, because when it comes down to it, as long as the colors balance in contrast to each other, it usually looks correct. 
 

I have also started judging in my clubs local contests, and one thing we never do is judge on paint color, and if they used the correct shade of RLM02 or not. If the shades look relatively correct, and in proper balance, it’s not even a factor. The only thing we ever knocked a model for, was that one particular F-14 had four different shades of white on it. 

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8 minutes ago, 1to1scale said:

Those are easy colors to get, they are the same colors as early F-18s. And same era F-14s.

We've established that "FS" are relatively easy to find (just not in Tamiya acrylic's!!) - so if that's what you're referring to - I agree ... But somehow I doubt Early F-18's or F-14's of the same period used British Standard paint types used on the A-4G's (which is the focus of the above post)? ... and the paint type I'm finding difficult to match!!

Also ... just a quick ask, friend - but my post IS a little picture heavy ... so could you prune your "quote" to cull the pictures unless you need to refer to a specific one ... that way we don't end up with a mountain of repeated (and confusing) info buddy!! :D

Rog :)

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7 minutes ago, Artful69 said:

We've established that "FS" are relatively easy to find (just not in Tamiya acrylic's!!) - so if that's what you're referring to - I agree ... But somehow I doubt Early F-18's or F-14's of the same period used British Standard paint types used on the A-4G's (which is the focus of the above post)? ... and the paint type I'm finding difficult to match!!

Also ... just a quick ask, friend - but my post IS a little picture heavy ... so could you prune your "quote" to cull the pictures unless you need to refer to a specific one ... that way we don't end up with a mountain of repeated (and confusing) info buddy!! :D

Rog :)

Ok, I was going by the Picture of the Skyhawk with the FS colors, I must have missed to part about BS colors. I totally missed the fact you were holding up two different color sheets. Sherlock Holmes I am not...

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Just now, 1to1scale said:

Ok, I was going by the Picture of the Skyhawk with the FS colors, I must have missed to part about BS colors. 

No worries dude ... I see what's happened ... the pic you are referring to is the 2 decal sheets - yeah? ... one of those is an F-18 with FS colour call outs (on the right) ... on the left is the A-4G Skyhawk with the BS call outs ... Every time I read "BS" I snicker in my head :D - demented, I know.

Rog :)

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Rog, I'm always learning stuff from other folks. That's why I'm more than happy to share what I've learned. 

With Mr Color, if you're curious about the coverage, hopefully this helps give you an idea of the coverage. I just finished my Bandai 1/144 Millennium Falcon using Mr Color for the main hull colour. 

IMG_20200127_000319.thumb.jpg.c1ddf112113e2202597498fa27706274.jpg

This was a new bottle of paint and the only one I used. 

IMG_20200127_000324.thumb.jpg.1ab8a42e1d48e10a292efaebaed7ee4b.jpg

It's at least 3/4 full still so you don't need much. 

 

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According to this BS 381C reference...

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=BS 381C&cRef=BS381C 693&metallic2=False&cDescription=Aircraft grey

693 Aircraft Grey is close to FS36231, for which GSI Creos has an acrylic equivalent, H-317.

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=BS 381C&cRef=BS381C 697&metallic2=False&cDescription=Light admiralty grey

697 Admiralty Grey is a close match to FS36480 Canada Gray, the equivalent of which in GSI Creos is H-417 / RLM 76. Although note, technically as this is a semi-gloss, it is actually FS26480 (the first digit in the Federal Standard denoting 1 for gloss, 2 for semi-gloss, and 3 for Matt.)

These are close but not exact of course, were there FS exact matches I'm sure they would have been duly noted.

S

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30 minutes ago, Wumm said:

According to this BS 381C reference...

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=BS 381C&cRef=BS381C 693&metallic2=False&cDescription=Aircraft grey

693 Aircraft Grey is close to FS36231, for which GSI Creos has an acrylic equivalent, H-317.

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=BS 381C&cRef=BS381C 697&metallic2=False&cDescription=Light admiralty grey

697 Admiralty Grey is a close match to FS36480 Canada Gray, the equivalent of which in GSI Creos is H-417 / RLM 76. Although note, technically as this is a semi-gloss, it is actually FS26480 (the first digit in the Federal Standard denoting 1 for gloss, 2 for semi-gloss, and 3 for Matt.)

These are close but not exact of course, were there FS exact matches I'm sure they would have been duly noted.

S

Nice ... I've book marked that link for future ref. Ta!

Rog :)

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