Revell P-51D Mustang - 2nd time around

[BlrwestSiR]

Nice progress on the Mustang there Peter. Your choice of markings is great too. Not one of the usual suspects. 

Carl

[DocRob]

Looks like a Mustang, so far, so good Peter. The build looks as clean as ever, when you put your hands onto it. there is no unwanted trace of all the mechanical abuse to be seen.

The new Eduard decals have a reputation to behave strangely. I have no prove of that, as I never used them, but I saw this video and other sources, like Info Eduard, that claim, you can peel off the transfer film, after applying the decals. May be the way to go for a trace free NMF finish, at least it could be tried for our benefit  with some spare decals on a prepared surface.

Cheers Rob

[GazzaS]

Excellent progress, Peter!   I was almost tempted to grab another Revell kit today...   then I realized I had an earlier version of the aircraft by Dragon.  I like the scheme...   but that is a lot of yellow to weather.

[nmayhew]

hey Peter,

i've been following this!

a BMF P-51 is somewhere in my future builds...

re decals over BMF you may wish to consider HGW who do a stencil set for the P-51

HGW P-51 stencils & stars

I have used HGW on my P-47 and they perform extremely well

apart from the new micro (nano?!) masks from 1ManArmy - and they don't do the P-51 yet - there is nothing out there that's even close...until these Eduard decals apparently, although they may be good by accident rather than by design lol

anyway, looking forward to more on this!

Nick

[Peterpools]

Thanks Carl, very much appreciated and I'm looking forward to doing a paint scheme and markings of ..." Not one of the usual suspects".

Keep 'em comin

Peter

[Peterpools]

Rob

Very much appreciated your comments on the Mustang.

I have been doing some basic research on the new Eduard decals and originally thought only the new decals with the thicker clear carrier film were the type in question. After reading your post, watching the  video and then diving into researching out the 'Eduard Decals Caper', a lot of information is out there: both good and bad. I can understand why Eduard wanted to print their own decals as it will certainly be more cost effect, inks are applied digitally in one layer (no registration issues) and have tackled the 'clear carrier film issue' from a different angle.

My decals have a printing date on them of 2021, so they are the new school variety but the carrier film seems to still be the thinner type. In my research, I found four basic methods of removing the carrier film:

1. Apply the decals as normal, let dry at least over night and then with masking tape, gently remove the carrier film. This method worked well and didn't damage the inks/decals 

2 Apply the decals as normal, let dry over night and with a model knife and tweezers, peel and remove the carrier film. Some of the remaining decal had chips and damage

3. Apply the decals as normal, let dry over night, then with a Q-tip and white spirits gently rub the decal carrier film until it peels up and is removed. There seemed to be some staining of the painted wing (test mule) and further light rubbing of the stains, removed some of the decal inks - unacceptable and unusable decals. Also, I worry about using that much white spirits, as it will begin to dissolve the paint and clear gloss finished. Unacceptable results. 

4. Same as above but using Tamiya X-20A instead of white mineral spirits, with the same unacceptable results.

All the tests were done on painted plastic mules, none were done on a NMF test mule.

I can understand why Eduard changed the method and process but I can not find any instructions on the decal application from Eduard other then apply the decals as normal and nothing about removing the clear carrier film. Right now, I'm very leery as what to do and may just scrap the decals and look for different markings on traditional decals. Just too risky to try on a NMF without a lot of testing.

Keep 'em comin

Peter 

[Peterpools]

Thanks Gaz

I do like the yellow tail markings and not sure how I would lightly weather it at this stage of the game. But after reading Robs post and the Eduard decal issues, right now, I need to find more traditional decals to use on a NMF and also to start testing down the road.

Any chance you will be doing your Dragon Mustang and giving it your special touch - I surely hope so.

Keep 'em comin

Peter

[Peterpools]

Thanks Nick.

I haven't considered the HGW stencils but will be looking into them today. Aftyer I read Robs posts and watched the attached video, I dove back into researching the new Eduard decals with removable carrier film. Just above, I reviewed my findings to date. I'm a bit chicken on using this new method for me on a NMF and of all the NMF I've done, I haven't sealed any of the finishes - I painted and decaled right on top of the NMF with obtaining the finish I was after - very metallic and no silvering. Yes, I did cutout and remove as much as the carrier I could before applying the decals but sweated out the stencils and small numbers/letters.

Keep 'em comin

Peter

[DocRob]

Hi Peter, in the Info Eduard May edition, there is a description, about how to use the new Eduard decals. They do their testing on a 48 scale NMF Mustang. 

Info Eduard - Eduard Store

Cheers Rob

[Peterpools]

Rob

Awesome - heading over now. Will be testing the decals today and tomorrow and posting my results. The more I think about it, removing the carrier film is the way to go and will completely eliminate the need for the clear gloss blend coat and now with the decal actually only being an ink, should produce the exact same effect as paint masks do.

Keep 'em comin

Peter

[Peterpools]

Rob

Just read the How To article in the May Edition. Very informative and the recommended procedure is by using a knife to lift the edge of the carrier film and then tweezers to peel the carrier film off. The results were very different then my earlier research. I'm priming four small wings now with MRP Gray Primer, then will follow up with:

MRP Light Gray Primer, then Tamiya LP1 Gloss Black and lastly AK Extreme Metal 479 Aluminum

MRP Light Gray primer, then Mr Color #2 Gloss Black and lastly AK Extreme Metal #479 Aluminum

MRP Light Gray Primer, then Tamiya LP1 Gloss Black  Mr Color Gloss Black and lastly Alclad ALC 101 Aluminum

MRP Light Gray primer, then Mr Color #2 Gloss Black and lastly Alclad ALC 101 Aluminum

If all goes well and the carrier film can be removed without damaging the decals and not lifting the NMF, we should be home free.

Keep 'em comin

Peter

 

[Peterpools]

 

Update: I've started the test and all the small wing panels are primed and half air brushed with Tamiya LP1 Gloss Black and the other two with Mr Color Gloss Black. All four panels will be allowed to dry until tomorrow and then the NMF goes on.

I also decided to add to the test and did two more panels primed with MRP and then air brushed with:

Hataka Olive Drab (lacquer) and Mig Interior Green (acrylic). Tomorrow I'll gloss them and let dry until Sunday.

Keep 'em comin

Peter

 

[DocRob]

The results should be very interesting Peter, not only considering the decals, but also for the NMF finish.
BTW: Do you know about these panel masks? I nearly bought them a while ago for my ZM Mustang, but they are made for the Tamiya kit and I'm not sure if they fit. 
P-51D MUSTANG - SURFACE PANELS MASK - 1/32 - MIR/32008 (hgwmodels.cz)

Cheers Rob

[Peterpools]

Rob

NMF goes on this morning and late today I'll apply the decals and let dry over night and then Sunday is the big day.

Much appreciated the information on the HGW P-51 Surface Panel Masks and I'm not sure they will fit the Revell kit either, as they are intended to be used with the Tamiya P-51. Something to keep in mind for down the road. 

Keep 'em comin

Peter

 

[Peterpools]

UPDATE 11/14/21: TEST RESLTS SO FAR:

No pics yet but I've applied the new Eduard decals to six different wing panels, four with NMF's, one with Hataka Olive Drab and one with Mig Interior gree - both clear coated with Hataka Clear Gloss (lacquer). next update will be the results with images.

Results so far: OMG, the new Eduard decals are as thin as Cartograf, lay down magnificently and actually seem to straighten themselves out when as I applied them and didn't get a few perfectly straight, seemed to nearly jump into a straight line as I worked them. 

Initial first impressions:  Applied with the 'classical method" of Micro Set and Sol, used as per the Micro instructions and with 'soft' water, they are the equal to Cartagraf! Yes, the carrier film is on.

I'm going to let the decals dry for at least six plus hours and then tonight or tomorrow, remove the carrier film.

Keep 'em comin

Peter

[harv]

Can't wait for results !!.....harv

[Peterpools]

Harv

I was actually thinking the decals would be just so so and a let down and so far, holy cow, they are performing magnificently.

Keep 'em comin

Peter

[Peterpools]

Stop the press❗

After allowing the decals to dry for 3 hours, I tried removing the clear decal film from the test wing that was painted with Hataka lacquer and the results were not good at best. Peeling the clear film off is frustrating and the term 'time consuming' doesn't even come close. The more I tried picking at the clear film, I not only removed the majority of the clear film but some the the ink decal and destroyed the painted wing in that area, not only scratching the paint but took chunks of it out as well. I even tried rubbing Tamiya Tape over the clear film and then peeling it up and a total no go.

So right now, my finding ob the painted wing, it's a no go. Not worth the time or effort. I'm now going to test the next wing panel, leaving the carrier film alone, apply clear gloss and see what happens. And I haven't even touched the AK and Alclad  panels yet.

Keep 'em comin

Peter

[DocRob]

1 hour ago, Peterpools said:

Stop the press❗

After allowing the decals to dry for 3 hours, I tried removing the clear decal film from the test wing that was painted with Hataka lacquer and the results were not good at best. Peeling the clear film off is frustrating and the term 'time consuming' doesn't even come close. The more I tried picking at the clear film, I not only removed the majority of the clear film but some the the ink decal and destroyed the painted wing in that area, not only scratching the paint but took chunks of it out as well. I even tried rubbing Tamiya Tape over the clear film and then peeling it up and a total no go.

So right now, my finding ob the painted wing, it's a no go. Not worth the time or effort. I'm now going to test the next wing panel, leaving the carrier film alone, apply clear gloss and see what happens. And I haven't even touched the AK and Alclad  panels yet.

Ayayayyyyy, that sounds not very promising Peter, but if I remember it right, Eduard claimed to let the decals dry for 24 hours. Maybe you were driven by understandable impatience. 

Cheers Rob

[Peterpools]

Rob

I'm not giving up just yet and re-shot three more small wing panels with Hataka, MRP & Mr Color for one more series of test.  Then I'll have all the info and and results for us to share.

I have also found out that no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't peel off the clear film from any of the decals on any of the NMF panels and it's not necessary as you can't see the decal film at all. I never over spray my NMF after decaling with any clear coats, so I will post images of the panels as they are.

I thought I would break the unwritten rule and try and lift the clear film from the decals on the painted panels, with good old plain masking tape, not Tamiya tape as it isn't sticky enough. The film did break loose using regular hardware store masking tape and I could peel the carrier film off  with no effect on the painted surfaces. Thusly the reason for the three more painted panels, to redo this test using the masking tape on three different paints.

Film at eleven.

Keep 'em comin

Peter

[DocRob]

17 hours ago, Peterpools said:

Initial first impressions:  Applied with the 'classical method" of Micro Set and Sol, used as per the Micro instructions and with 'soft' water, they are the equal to Cartagraf! Yes, the carrier film is on.

Just another thought Peter, Micro Sol is normally applied to soften the decal, to let it melt into the surface. Maybe it would be better with these decals to leave the Sol away until you removed the carrier film and then hit the rest of the decal with Sol. I can imagine, that soften up the carrier film, could make it more difficult to get rid off it.

Cheers Rob

[Peterpools]

1 hour ago, DocRob said:

Just another thought Peter, Micro Sol is normally applied to soften the decal, to let it melt into the surface. Maybe it would be better with these decals to leave the Sol away until you removed the carrier film and then hit the rest of the decal with Sol. I can imagine, that soften up the carrier film, could make it more difficult to get rid off it.

Cheers Rob

Rob

Excellent idea. Since I’m almost done preparing the three additional test samples, now just needing the clear Gloss top Coat applied this morning:

MRP Gray Primer & MRP # 299 Insignia Red

MRP Gray Primer & Mr Color # 72 Intermediate Blue 

MRP Gray Primer & Hataka C065 Olive Drab

I’ll apply the decals on each one with one sample only having the decals applied with Micro Set and the other two with both Micro Set and Sol. I’m also now going to prepare an additional NMF test panel and apply a set of decals with only Micro Set as well. This should cover all the bases and a lot bigger test project then I originally thought.

Keep ‘em comin

Peter

[Bomber_County]

Wow, Peter I must have been living on another planet, only just catching up, good research……looking forward to seeing the results…..

[Peterpools]

Phil

At times I'm on the same planet. Just finished the test and I was able to workout a procedure that works.

Keep 'em comin

Peter

[Peterpools]

Disappointing news first and then the Positive results.

I completed the tests and was able to work out a system that had consistent results.

The results are in and I was able to lift the carrier film with no damage to either the decal or paint surface. The key is prep, paint, clear gloss (smooth surface for decaling) and decal procedure. I was able to apply the decal and lift off the carrier film, leaving nothing but the decal, which looks exactly as if the markings were painted on and not a hint of any film residue at the edges. Stencil data is perfect as well.

My first test, I applied Eduard’s new style of decals with the top layer carrier film as normal over a glossy smooth surface using the Micro System of Set and Sol. I left the decals to dry at least three hours and tried to remove the carrier film and it wouldn’t budge.

Trying to remove the clear film by using a #11 blade to lift the film and then tweezers to remove the film was a disaster. Caused chips in the decal, left patches of the film and destroyed the paint finish with scratches and chips. Way too much work and the results were terrible.

The second test:

Painted panels:

All were primed with MRP Light Gray Lacquer Primer and then painted with:

Ammo by Mig acrylic

Hataka – Lacquer

MR Color - Lacquer

 

Now for the good news: IT WORKED

Photos tomorrow …

The key is the decal setting solutions, as they do melt/soften the carrier film, which reacts with the paint and that’s the cause of the problems. Thanks Rob your thoughts was correct. Do not use an #11 blade and tweezers. I used good old hardware store (3M) masking tape, straight from the roll to lift the carrier film.

Test samples:

1.      Mig paint: Set and Sol were used and it took a lot of work and time to remove the carrier film. I finally was able to remove the clear film with none of the ink/decal lifting and zero damage to the painted surface. Just takes some time to do.

2.      Mr Color.: : Set and Sol were used and it took a lot of work and time to remove the carrier film. I finally was able to remove the clear film with none of the ink/decal lifting and zero damage to the painted surface. Just takes some time to do.

3.      Hataka Paint: Used Set very lightly and no Sol. I was able to remove the clear film with none of the ink/decal lifting and zero damage to the painted surface much faster and much easier without Sol being used.

4.      MRP Paint: No Set or Sol was used. The clear film came up very easily with none of the ink/decal lifting and zero damage to the painted surface.

5.      Stencil data decal applied to the wing tip – no Set or Sol used. The carrier film lifted effortlessly.

 

 

The key is not to use setting agents, as they are not necessary if the carrier film is going to be removed. Using Set lightly also worked, just not as quickly.