Fidd88 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 On 1/14/2020 at 9:12 AM, GazzaS said: I'm sorry guys, but the baddest ass of them all was the Tiger I Armor to defeat the best anti-tank belts... yes, anti-tank belts, not some lonely Ratch-bum hiding behind the only bush on the Steppe. And a gun and optics made to reach out and touch someone. No tank will ever mete out as much punishment or have a greater kill to loss ratio. When people think of tank, 70% or better think of this very baddass machine. Gaz The kill to loss ratio of a Tiger only stands up as a figure if you discount the numerous ones abandoned and lost from break-down (and that in turn omits all those which broke-down on the way to the battle!) I'm with Clunk, the last decent tank Jerry built in WW2 was the PzIII, the only exception, I think, being the Jagdpanther which had improved transmission over the Panther, and mounted a fearsome weapon, whilst being light enough to be generally employable, and reliable. Which certainly can't be said of the Tigers I or II, or indeed the standard Panther! As to tanks being employed to break through ATG screens, that's the infantry's job. As Nelson said: "A ships a fool as fights a fort" - ie using a ship to attack a fort expressly designed to both withstand ships cannon, and possessing far more powerful and long-ranged cannon than the ship, and invariably both a height advantage and "resistance to sinking", it follows it's daft to use a ship to fight a fort. Even a 6pdr could knock-out a Tiger at 500 yards or so iirc, and at much greater ranges from the side or rear..... As an overwatch weapon, it was good, however, provided it didn't have to move about, or travel far to get to the battle. Or have to retreat. Or rely on uncertain fuel resupply. Or cross bridges. (I could go on) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1to1scale Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 My vote has to be the M1 Abrahams. It’s probably the deadliest tank, and it actually has a battle proven record. And I don’t believe it ever had a loss, am I correct? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[CAT]CplSlade Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 15 minutes ago, 1to1scale said: My vote has to be the M1 Abrahams. It’s probably the deadliest tank, and it actually has a battle proven record. And I don’t believe it ever had a loss, am I correct? 23 were damaged/destroyed during the Persian Gulf War. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[CAT]CplSlade Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Fidd88 said: The kill to loss ratio of a Tiger only stands up as a figure if you discount the numerous ones abandoned and lost from break-down (and that in turn omits all those which broke-down on the way to the battle!) I'm with Clunk, the last decent tank Jerry built in WW2 was the PzIII, the only exception, I think, being the Jagdpanther which had improved transmission over the Panther, and mounted a fearsome weapon, whilst being light enough to be generally employable, and reliable. Which certainly can't be said of the Tigers I or II, or indeed the standard Panther! As to tanks being employed to break through ATG screens, that's the infantry's job. As Nelson said: "A ships a fool as fights a fort" - ie using a ship to attack a fort expressly designed to both withstand ships cannon, and possessing far more powerful and long-ranged cannon than the ship, and invariably both a height advantage and "resistance to sinking", it follows it's daft to use a ship to fight a fort. Even a 6pdr could knock-out a Tiger at 500 yards or so iirc, and at much greater ranges from the side or rear..... As an overwatch weapon, it was good, however, provided it didn't have to move about, or travel far to get to the battle. Or have to retreat. Or rely on uncertain fuel resupply. Or cross bridges. (I could go on) While everything you said is true from the viewpoint of efficiency and reliability, you can't deny that the idea of the Tiger put panic in the hearts of the Allies, so much so that infantry were spooked by the idea of encountering one. What other tank has had that effect on its foes? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1to1scale Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 22 minutes ago, [CAT]CplSlade said: 23 were damaged/destroyed during the Persian Gulf War. I probably should have researched before i spoke. I meant destroyed by enemy tank or aircraft, all M1s lost in the Persian Gulf war were by friendly fire, four by Apache and the rest destroyed to keep from being salvaged later after breaking down. I do believe that two were destroyed by shoulder fired anti-tank missile in the latest war in Iraq. So I guess that two were lost in battle, but not by another tank. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[CAT]CplSlade Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 There is some evidence to suggest Abrams sold to other countries have been lost, but based on the circumstances that seems to be the fault of the crews and not due to deficiencies in the Abrams itself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidd88 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 2 hours ago, [CAT]CplSlade said: While everything you said is true from the viewpoint of efficiency and reliability, you can't deny that the idea of the Tiger put panic in the hearts of the Allies, so much so that infantry were spooked by the idea of encountering one. What other tank has had that effect on its foes? Hmm, that may be true, but then it's the "idea" of the Tiger, not the reality of it's actual effectiveness. The simple fact is that other tanks, especially the Mk IVH were frequently misidentified as the Tiger, and that any Flak 88 employed in the direct-fire AT role sounded exactly the same as the Tiger's 88, further adding to confusion. At typical ETO engagement ranges, both the Mk IVH and the Flak 88 (or come to that the Panther) could easily destroy any allied tank with the exception of a Mk VII Churchill. At which point, whether or not it was actually a Tiger becomes somewhat academic, although it added to the myth. Precisely the same 'escalation of threat' was seen in Luftwaffe AAR's, in 1940, where the preponderance of Spitfires being ID'd as the type engaged was out of all proportion to the numbers employed relative to the Hurricane. In fact the Hurricane was both far more numerous, and, arguably, the better weapon, in respect of it being an excellent gun-platform for less experienced pilots but also because the types more basic construction permitted repairs to be done on station, rather than the factory repairs the Spitfire generally required. Simplicity, reliability, survivability, offensive capability, ease of repair, upgrade potential, cheap cost, ease and flexibility of use - these are all virtues in military equipment. Frankly the Tiger only has two of them, and then only if it arrived in working in order in the Battle Area... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggtim Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 On 1/14/2020 at 1:12 AM, GazzaS said: I'm sorry guys, but the baddest ass of them all was the Tiger I Armor to defeat the best anti-tank belts... yes, anti-tank belts, not some lonely Ratch-bum hiding behind the only bush on the Steppe. And a gun and optics made to reach out and touch someone. No tank will ever mete out as much punishment or have a greater kill to loss ratio. When people think of tank, 70% or better think of this very baddass machine. Gaz I have to admit that this thing would have made me crap my pants if I saw it coming after me. There's just something really mean looking about it, and after the wussy little tanks that preceded it, this would have been a butt-puckering shock to the system. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martinnfb Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 mean looks have many forms 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martinnfb Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 this one is also pretty mean looking thingie 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martinnfb Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 everything with red flag flying over is mean looking 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[CAT]CplSlade Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Martinnfb said: this one is also pretty mean looking thingie Looks to me like Wall-E on a bigger tracked base. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty44 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GusMac Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 31 minutes ago, [CAT]CplSlade said: Looks to me like Wall-E on a bigger tracked base. You beat me to it. That's exactly my thought when I see these. Not as environmentally friendly as Wall-E either! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martinnfb Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocRob Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 On 2/20/2020 at 9:15 PM, Martinnfb said: And of course ........ case closed I know that stare . Cheers Rob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martinnfb Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martinnfb Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martinnfb Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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