Troubles with Klear / Future and Micro Set / Sol

[DocRob]

Hola Señhores, I need your help.
Yesterday I decaled my Mig-31 and after dabbing off the residues of Micro Set and Sol got some white clouding in the clear coat around the decals, which are still there after cleaning everything again with clear water and let it dry over night.
The gloss coat under it is Klear, which should be similar to Future and left to dry 24 hours before decaling. I suspect, it's more the Sol's application, as I applied some stencils only with Set and can't find any irritations there. 
My Mig nearly did the dart stunt, but I hope there are suggestions, about what to do from you. I'm considering to try to apply some Klear on the said areas, but am not sure about that.

Cheers Rob

Here is the worst decal

And these are the culprits

[harv]

Really dont have any advice,  but I know other guys have had this problem.  Hope you get it sorted....harv

[Bomber_County]

I hope not, as you guys know the F4 is stalled as I contemplate either stripping or put the decals down and forget about the mistake of having the rear stabs the wrong colour.......except I’d Kleer coated as Rob had..........don’t tell the it’s going to do the same.........it will become a very expensive dart............

[DocRob]

Just now, Bomber_County said:

I hope not, as you guys know the F4 is stalled as I contemplate either stripping or put the decals down and forget about the mistake of having the rear stabs the wrong colour.......except I’d Kleer coated as Rob had..........don’t tell the it’s going to do the same.........it will become a very expensive dart............

I used warm water for the stencils and it seemed to have worked with the HGW wet transfers, puh, there are thousands of them abd til now, I applied only the bottom ones.
For bigger decals, which have to follow contours of panel lines, don't put lots of Micro-Sol on, just dab a little bit onto the decal, avoiding the paintjob, this will work. If they are not laid down enough, it's better to repeat the application. I haven't done so, because I never ran into this problem before, lessons learned.

Cheers Rob

[krow113]

I always wait 48 hrs.

I have heard an application of Klear will , um , clear this up.

Try some with a small brush in an accessible area.

[DocRob]

4 minutes ago, krow113 said:

I always wait 48 hrs.

I have heard an application of Klear will , um , clear this up.

Try some with a small brush in an accessible area.

Thanks a lot, nice wording with the c/Klear . I will try to dab on some Klear in a hidden area for testing and will prepare some test parts soon, which will receive a heavy dose of Micro-Sol, after waiting longer for the Klear to cure.

Cheers Rob

[smitty44]

I've had it happen before and eventually go away.

[krow113]

...another Klear tip;

Mix it 50/50 with IPA for a hard gloss coat , I never got the clouding or white staining using that mix.

Its a minor issue anyway , patience being the best cure.

[smitty44]

Dozens of modelers in the U.S mix their modeling with IPA every day!!

[DocRob]

13 minutes ago, krow113 said:

...another Klear tip;

Mix it 50/50 with IPA for a hard gloss coat , I never got the clouding or white staining using that mix.

Its a minor issue anyway , patience being the best cure.

Thanks, I will give that a try, the harder, the better.

Cheers Rob

16 minutes ago, smitty44 said:

I've had it happen before and eventually go away.

After 24 hours nothing went away on mine, before I do anything, there will be another day, but I don't think it will self cure.

3 minutes ago, smitty44 said:

Dozens of modelers in the U.S mix their modeling with IPA every day!!

No CO2 in my Klear , be it IPA or not, but for apres modelling...

Cheers Rob

 

[1to1scale]

I have seen this issue before, which is why I never use it, except on the wood floors in my house. Here is the issue I see, floor products are very tough and clear, but are designed to be stripped off. Ammonia will strip them, along with some other mild acids and alcohol as well. Some of the active ingredients in decal solutions are mild acids and alcohols, which probably affected the clear. It’s possible it might dry up, but I suspect that the issue goes down through it. You probably have the right idea that a strip and respray is in order, but don’t start with That option. Try spraying a little bit of the clear back over it, and see what happens.

[krow113]

lol

1 beer and I 'm feelin' it so none for me while I work.

[DocRob]

8 minutes ago, 1to1scale said:

I have seen this issue before, which is why I never use it, except on the wood floors in my house. Here is the issue I see, floor products are very tough and clear, but are designed to be stripped off. Ammonia will strip them, along with some other mild acids and alcohol as well. Some of the active ingredients in decal solutions are mild acids and alcohols, which probably affected the clear. It’s possible it might dry up, but I suspect that the issue goes down through it. You probably have the right idea that a strip and respray is in order, but don’t start with That option. Try spraying a little bit of the clear back over it, and see what happens.

I never had these issues before, but your theory about the chemics may be right. In a day or two, i will give it a slight coat of Klear and see how that works, if not, I make a mask and mist some base colour on. If that isn't succesful, lets see how far a Mig can fly.

8 minutes ago, krow113 said:

lol

1 beer and I 'm feelin' it so none for me while I work

Now there is another solution, some of Smittys IPA's and I don't see the clouding anymore. But tomorrow is another day and  can't stay boozed for the rest of my life .

Cheers Rob

[1to1scale]

6 hours ago, DocRob said:

 

Here is what I would try if it was my model. I have been down this road with six models And I feel your pain.

1. Set it out in the sun for 30-60 minutes and see if there is any change, it may need a little more intense drying, a hair dryer on low might work too. (This worked on my P-51)

2. Spray on a little more diluted clear, see if it re-activates the underlying clear. (Worked on my BF-109)

3. Sand around the decal with fine 2000 sandpaper to get down to the paint, then re-clear. (This worked on my A-7)
 

If it doesn’t work, cry a little. Go pick up a dog toy or stuffed animal and punch or strangle it. Regain your composure, accept that you might need to do some more heavy duty repairs.

4. Try cleaning it with some acrylic airbrush cleaner that is mild, like Madea Airbrush cleaner. Put a little on a cotton swab and rub the area. (On my Mig 15, I was able to remove stuff on top of and some of the clear)

5. Next step is diluted alcohol. (Stripped my Corsair before repainting)

6. Try Windex (diluted ammonia) and be careful where it goes. (Nuclear option, will remove clear, possibly paint too, depending on type, dryness, and thinner in the paint. You might get lucky with lacquer)

7. Lastly, strip the clear off the tail face with 91% iso alcohol. (My f-15 gunze paint wasn’t affected. Will probably strip most anything else except well dried lacquer)

8. Testors decal and paint stripper or oven cleaner, then Repaint.

[DocRob]

Thanks gentlemen, you're a great bunch, helpful and reassuring, even funny, I like to fail here on LSM .

1 hour ago, 1to1scale said:

Here is what I would try if it was my model. I have been down this road with six models And I feel your pain.

1. Set it out in the sun for 30-60 minutes and see if there is any change, it may need a little more intense drying, a hair dryer on low might work too. (This worked on my P-51)

2. Spray on a little more diluted clear, see if it re-activates the underlying clear. (Worked on my BF-109)

3. Sand around the decal with fine 2000 sandpaper to get down to the paint, then re-clear. (This worked on my A-7)
 

If it doesn’t work, cry a little. Go pick up a dog toy or stuffed animal and punch or strangle it. Regain your composure, accept that you might need to do some more heavy duty repairs.

4. Try cleaning it with some acrylic airbrush cleaner that is mild, like Madea Airbrush cleaner. Put a little on a cotton swab and rub the area. (On my Mig 15, I was able to remove stuff on top of and some of the clear)

5. Next step is diluted alcohol. (Stripped my Corsair before repainting)

6. Try Windex (diluted ammonia) and be careful where it goes. (Nuclear option, will remove clear, possibly paint too, depending on type, dryness, and thinner in the paint. You might get lucky with lacquer)

7. Lastly, strip the clear off the tail face with 91% iso alcohol. (My f-15 gunze paint wasn’t affected. Will probably strip most anything else except well dried lacquer)

8. Testors decal and paint stripper or oven cleaner, then Repaint.

For the moment, I will stay with option 1-3 , before I will go nuking the stars with heavy ordonance . We have a humidity here at about 85% today, so this maybe is a factor too. The sun is out since an hour, so out with the Mig under the open skies.

Cheers Rob

[DocRob]

The sunbath was fine for me, but not for the Mig, It seems, that everything was completely dry before.
Look for that stencil there, these HGW wet transfers are great, no silvering at all, no surrounding decal sheet and no reflection, even in the brightest sun.
I have one set for my F4 kit, but has to check for my planned Mig-21 builds
If I ever do a heavy stenciled jet again, I would look in advance if there is a set of wet transfers available, because I ever ran in trouble with decals, one way or another.

Cheers Rob

[Bomber_County]

reading all these ideas and recommendations not sure what to do now with my F4 , just get on with something else................I’ll give one decal a go somewhere discreet........feeling your pain Rob.......

[krow113]

The sun treatment proves its not a 'moisture blush' .

Thats good. It is a stain from the decal solution then.

So it is ingrained in the finish.

Thats bad as it means a removal process. Try some future on it or wet sand the areas carefully and you should see it begin to disappear.

[DocRob]

1 hour ago, Bomber_County said:

reading all these ideas and recommendations not sure what to do now with my F4 , just get on with something else................I’ll give one decal a go somewhere discreet........feeling your pain Rob.......

Thanks Phil, but there is always a way, which includes the bin as ultima ratio, but that's how it is.

1 hour ago, krow113 said:

The sun treatment proves its not a 'moisture blush' .

Thats good. It is a stain from the decal solution then.

So it is ingrained in the finish.

Thats bad as it means a removal process. Try some future on it or wet sand the areas carefully and you should see it begin to disappear.

Exactly my thoughts Steve, first some Klear onto the areas, then the heavy treatment.

Cheers Rob

[GazzaS]

Rob...

   I use Mr. Mark Setter and Mr. Mark Softer.  I'm sure they're not much different from your products, but are more readily available in Australasia.  There is adhesive in the first product.   As a Future user, I had/have the same problem.   So, I quit using the first solution unless the decal fails to stick without it.

 

What worked for me was wiping the white stains with a soft paintbrush dipped in Mr. Mark Softer.  However, I never baked them in the sun.  So, your mileage may vary.

 

I always tried to wipe it away while still not hardened.  Though there have been occasions where I noticed it the next morning.

 

I hope you haven;t started sanding, yet.

 

Gaz

[1to1scale]

I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but related. Gaz, I have used all three major brands, microset/sol Is pretty mild stuff, it’s usually the first level and works well with good quality decals, but not strong enough to do damage to most finishes. However, there are exceptions. I have heard that AK real colors paint will stain from decal solvents, even weak ones. Future, Klear, Johnson’s, etc, I had heard of what happened here before. 
 

Earlier I could not remember the name of the acid in decal solutions, but now do. Acetic acid is the main component in vinegar (4%) and various decal solutions, it’s acidic, but not terribly corrosive in normal concentrations. Ammonia is the opposite, it’s an alkali, if you mix the two together, you get a neutral. Since both are corrosive, they can both affect paint and clears if they are not resilient to them.

 

1. Microset or sol, relatively mild, good for thin and fragile decals. 

2. Mr Mark, definitely stronger than micro, I had really thin old decals start to melt with this stuff, but it’s my go to for HGW. 

3. Solvaset, stronger yet, but still safe.

now for some not so gentile solutions

4. Tamiya Laquer Thinner, getting dangerous, but good for melting silvering away, but can cause thinner decals to wrinkle permanently. 

5. Tamiya Extra Thin, work very well for silvered decals. But very risky, last resort before a repaint.  

[GrahamF@Iconicair]

I think bottom line is you're using too much of either, the liquids to all intents and purposes are 'clear' but if you dried them all out in a block they would be white, and what you're seeing is too much of the fluid drying out into a semi white patch.

 

 

Graham

[BlrwestSiR]

49 minutes ago, 1to1scale said:

Tamiya Laquer Thinner, getting dangerous, but good for melting silvering away, but can cause thinner decals to wrinkle permanently. 

As a slight variation on this, try Tamiya X20A thinner. It's their acrylic thinner. I've used it on thicker decals like Tamiya and Bandai  kit decals with great success. It won't attack lacquer or enamel paints either. At least not in my experience.

I used it on my Millennium Falcon build a little while back. All the coloured and dark grey panels are decals. 

 

 

 

[DocRob]

11 hours ago, GazzaS said:

I use Mr. Mark Setter and Mr. Mark Softer.  I'm sure they're not much different from your products, but are more readily available in Australasia.  There is adhesive in the first product.   As a Future user, I had/have the same problem.   So, I quit using the first solution unless the decal fails to stick without it.

Thanks for your experiences Gaz, but your idea is to use the most possible culprit to solve the problem, if I understand it right. Mr. Mark Softer is the equivalent of Micro Sol, which I suppose is responsible for the clouding.

10 hours ago, 1to1scale said:

I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but related. Gaz,

Not in the least, it's good to broaden the perspective. We work with a lot of different chemicals, so i's really helpful, to understand what happens here. I never hear about the problems concerning AK' Real Colours and decal solutions. On the Mig I have used Real Colours for the first time, so maybe my Pledge coat was not thick  or dry enough and the Sol got through somehow and reacted with the colour. That would explain, why I didn't ran into this problem before.
For the HGW stencils, I used only warm water with one drop of dishwasher to break the surface tension. It seemed to have worked well, but I noticed, that I had to wait the suggested drying time of at least 6 hours to not pull off the stencil, while removing the carrier film. 
In your great 'How -To' about HGW wet transfers you experienced faster drying times, maybe because of the use of setting solvent. 

10 hours ago, GrahamF@Iconicair said:

I think bottom line is you're using too much of either, the liquids to all intents and purposes are 'clear' but if you dried them all out in a block they would be white, and what you're seeing is too much of the fluid drying out into a semi white patch.

I think you have a point here Graham. As I never ran into these problems before, I applied both Set and Sol in 'large' amounts, let's say little pools on the planes surface. With future (no pun intended) use of Sol, I will dab the decal only a little with the solvent and redo it as often as necessary.

Your theory about the white block drying though, I believe is not applying in my case. Maybe five minutes after I applied the Sol, I saw the first clouding and immediately rinsed the said areas with tap water. By that time the Sol was not dried, so the cause of the clouding seems to be a reaction with underlying layers.

9 hours ago, BlrwestSiR said:

As a slight variation on this, try Tamiya X20A thinner

Honestly, I wouldn't try the X20 on Pledge/Klear/Future, without trying on a dummy. The kit decals I've used were relatively thin and good to handle. I try to avoid the Tamiya / Hasegawa thickies where I can

 

@ All, thank you for your great input and telling me about your experiences.
In the last weeks, I had the feeling that there is not that much modelling discussion happening here. Sure it's a forum and had happened before and after a while there are new discussions, great WIP's and new faces. Your taking part in this discussion about the nightmares, decals could develop into though, showed me again, that you are a great knowingly bunch, willing to share their experiences and that makes me feel proud of you lads.

Cheers Rob

[GazzaS]

1 minute ago, DocRob said:

Thanks for your experiences Gaz, but your idea is to use the most possible culprit to solve the problem, if I understand it right. Mr. Mark Softer is the equivalent of Micro Sol, which I suppose is responsible for the clouding.

 

Rob,

     I thought the same thing at first.  But it worked.  It's not like a gentle clean is gonna hurt your paint.