Biplane Rigging........Help........

[Bomber_County]

Ok guys as a newbie to WW1 planes, I’ve at wits end to know what to rig with....pretty much stalled without it..........I bought this .....

 

but seems very very thin. Also WnW (Ships Camel) callout rectangular brace rigging.

The million dollar questions are suggestions of manufacturers and size........thanks....

 

[krow113]

The WNW instructions supply all that you need.

Lots of ways to do things .

Good luck!

[Bomber_County]

Thanks Steve, it was only a question!

[krow113]

All that you need is in the WNW instructions.

[Clunkmeister]

Hey Phil,

Let me try to help a bit. Where to start?  From the beginning, I suppose.

Simply put, there are two main types of wires on all rigged biplanes.  Landing wires and flying wires.

Landing wires are the diagonal wires that run from the inner top to the outer lower. They support the weight of the wings when the airplane is on the ground.

The other wires are the flying wires. They run opposite to and cross with the landing wires. They run from the inner lower to the upper outer. They support the weight of the wing plus the weight of the entire airplane while in flight. They are often much bigger or even twinned, like the double wires seen on a Camel.  Landing wires on the other hand are usually single wires as they only need to support the weight of wing on the ground plus an occasional negative G maneuver. 

German airplanes usually use good old round wires and they’re usually just single steel cable or wires, where most British aircraft used flat, or more aptly, aerofoil shaped wires, and most often the flying wires are twinned. The flat wires are often referred to as RAF wires.  Then you have the cross braces between the struts, and finally the drag wires from the nose to the struts.  Some British and American aircraft (think Curtiss designs like the Felixstowe and Jenny, as well as the Be-2 and Re-8) also have extra jury struts landing wires above the upper wing  they keep the upper wing tips from collapsing while the aircraft is at rest.

Then finally, you have the various control wires, which run from the controls to the flight controls.

Let me get this out of the way, I TRULY DETEST RIGGING WITH FLAT WIRES.  Personally, I also actually despise Prym, EZ Line, and all the other stretchy crap for structural wing rigging use.  

I usually use Mono line for my builds. It adds strength, just like the real thing.  On British planes, that’s a problem, so I’ve usually just faked it and used mono line. Not really cool, but you can count the number of British planes I’ve built on one hand.  I used RB Productions RAF wires on a Swordfish I built and they looked the part, not 100% perfect, and quite fiddly, but looked really decent when finished. 

For your Camel, it’s a mighty small plane without the huge wings so you can get away with flat Prym or flat EZ Line for structural rigging. 

Before you mount the top wing, attach the wires to the top wing. Drill holes part way into the surface, and attach the lines with CA. Once you attach the wing, it’s simple to run each wire to its spot on the lower wing. Slightly tension the line and attach it with a drop of CA. 

Personally, I do the cross braces between the struts first, then do the landing wires followed by the flying wires, working from the inside and work outward. Always. Otherwise you’ll end up rigging yourself into being unable to reach the last ones. All I can say, is just try in.  It’s actually really easy, and if you work carefully and deliberately, you’ll be done before you know it.

For control lines, I ALWAYS use found EZ Line or Prym. That way, fumble fingers doesn’t snag one and snap it off.

Turnbuckles: are another game altogether. I have my method, which I can explain as well.  But there is a great tutorial on turnbuckles at Des’s site, WW1aircraftmodels. If you read through that, I can answer any questions you have, but my experience on flat wires is limited at best. 

 

[Bomber_County]

Ernie, you’re a star, that’s exactly what I needed. Must admit I forgot about Des’s site. It was, having closed up the Camel and put the lower wing on, I realised that perhaps rigging and spraying needed to be tackled prior to the upper wing. Told you I was a newbie. Thanks again and very much appreciated.......

[Jeff]

I KNEW I would learn something here !  Excellent Ernie..... when you are attaching the wires to the wings after drilling the holes do you add a little metal ring of sorts, like taking a small wire and spinning it on paperclip to make a loop with a short tail to glue into the hole so the wires have a place to tie to? I think I saw that on Des's site, and it seemed a real good plan...... do you do that?

[BlrwestSiR]

I've only ever rigged a single biplane kit. I used EZ line and whenever I need to move it (thankfully, not often) the wings wiggle just a bit so I can see what Ernie means. 

Carl

[HubertB]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

I KNEW I would learn something here !  Excellent Ernie..... when you are attaching the wires to the wings after drilling the holes do you add a little metal ring of sorts, like taking a small wire and spinning it on paperclip to make a loop with a short tail to glue into the hole so the wires have a place to tie to? I think I saw that on Des's site, and it seemed a real good plan...... do you do that?

CA loves nylon monofilament. And it is also at its strongest resisting tensile forces (the reason why it is so difficult to pry your glued fingers apart). There is no real need for a hook at the end of the wire.

Hubert

[Bomber_County]

This is great guys. So I’m off to scour Amazon for some monofilament, WnW indicate 0.1 x 0.3 for wires so I reckon 0.25 OD would be a fair compromise????? .......if I can get it black or brown ..........?...

[Jeff]

https://www.ww1aircraftmodels.com/page47.html

This is what I was referring to.....

52 minutes ago, HubertB said:

CA loves nylon monofilament. And it is also at its strongest resisting tensile forces (the reason why it is so difficult to pry your glued fingers apart). There is no real need for a hook at the end of the wire.

Hubert

OK, then , like Phil, I guess I should sniff around for some monofilament, I do have some very expensive EZ-Line, I was going to try......

Edited April 5, 2020 by Jeff
add more info

[krow113]

12 hours ago, Clunkmeister said:

  It’s actually really easy,

lol

Key statement there .

I removed my advice and help I misunderstood what was being asked.

[HubertB]

20 hours ago, Bomber_County said:

This is great guys. So I’m off to scour Amazon for some monofilament, WnW indicate 0.1 x 0.3 for wires so I reckon 0.25 OD would be a fair compromise????? .......if I can get it black or brown ..........?...

Pulling the monofilament under a Sharpie  tip will color it any way you want. Black will make it more visible. 0.2 will then look better. For silver, I put some Rub’n Buff on a piece of paper towel, and pull the wire through the folded paper.

Hubert

PS: btw, after a long search, I finally found some flat monofilament (in dayglo orange  ) , although it is a bit on the heavy side. Spending time on an internet search on fishing supply sites and forums may be worth it. And if you find something, do not hesitate to share your finding. I can’t remember where I found my flat monofilament, but shared it at the time on LSP.

[Clunkmeister]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

I KNEW I would learn something here !  Excellent Ernie..... when you are attaching the wires to the wings after drilling the holes do you add a little metal ring of sorts, like taking a small wire and spinning it on paperclip to make a loop with a short tail to glue into the hole so the wires have a place to tie to? I think I saw that on Des's site, and it seemed a real good plan...... do you do that?

On Flat wire aircraft, the wires were generally bolted to a fitting on the wing. He turnbuckle was actually part of the wire and you’d loosed a jam nut and rotated the wire to tighten or loosen. Then tighten the jam nut to secure it. 
I just learned that for sure yesterday from Steve, BTW. 
 

The common method we all use, wire to turnbuckle to line to an anchor on the top wing is more the German style. But it offers the most visual appeal and I use it even on British stuff, wrong as it is. 
1/32 Gaspatch scale turnbuckles are way, way, way too over scale so use 1/48 for a scale appearance  

 

[Clunkmeister]

I use Maxima chameleon line I think. 
I’ll check the size because it’s so small I need to get it in Europe.  

[SapperSix]

Ernie , Hubert et all,

Thanks for the information as I have to admit the wiring has been the biggest "thing" for me when I think about WW1 planes.  Well......that and some of the camouflage patterns.  I bought a couple of cheap bi planes to start in on.  Theory being I don't want to do all my learning in the middle of a Wing Nut build.  I will add this thread to my WW1 build stock pile.  

 

-S

[Clunkmeister]

1 hour ago, krow113 said:

lol

Key statement there .

I removed my advice and help I misunderstood what was being asked.

I might use the term “easy” with a bit of abandon.  It’s a new skill to learn and new rules that must be followed. Once you master the basics, it’s second nature, you just have to get out of plastic model mode and get into ship building mode. 

Instead of “easy” I’d say it’ll go quickly once you master the basics. 

[TJTX]

Dont forget it's ok to run the line just a little loose, then tighten it up with a warm piece of metal.  I used a putty blade heated with a lighter.  Hold it under the line and watch as it tightens right up. 

[krow113]

Agreed.

The best advice for newbies is stick to WNW instructions and their website. Everything is there nice and simple.

After that search forums and google terms , immersing in the info particular to the rigging you want to do.

You can see from Ernies post that the info grows exponentially regarding rigging and more questions erupt as the explanation progress'. So a simple three word question garners a litany of info and answers from all directions.

 

 

[Bomber_County]

Guys you are awesome, I’ve found all the sizes on Amazon UK, I’ll post findings later........

 

[HubertB]

12 hours ago, TJTX said:

Dont forget it's ok to run the line just a little loose, then tighten it up with a warm piece of metal.  I used a putty blade heated with a lighter.  Hold it under the line and watch as it tightens right up. 

I personally use an incandescent toothpick. Light it on, blow away the flame, and bring the incandescent tip under the wire. If you have many in the same area, wait until you have all of them installed. An incandescent matchstick will do the same.

One last word of advice : practice the heat tensioning on some form of mule. A little too close, and the wire will snap. You can always replace it, but pulling the remnant piece of wire from its hole can be vey difficult. Ask me how I know ... Did I mention that CA is VERY resistant to tensile forces  ? 
 

Hubert

[DocRob]

I experimented a little with my first WNW rigging job. In the end, I used Bob's buckles and like he suggests Maxima Chameleon fishing line with a diameter of 0,12mm.
The fishing line is much stronger than flexible thread and gives some stability to the airframe. Bob's buckle tubes have an inner diameter of 0,3mm, I believe, therefore you can sling the fishing line through after fiddling it through the anchor point or eyelet glued to the wing. The second pass through the tube is not so easy, its a tight fit and you need good tweezers to push the line through, but it has the advantage, that you can pull the line taut without gluing. Therefore it's possible to fix all the connections with CA as one final step.
The Maxima Chameleon line has coppery brownish Colour, which I really like, historically correct or not. It can be well seen on the kit, but is not so prominent like white or silver line. I use Bobs new aluminum tubes, because the look equally good and realistic without paint. 
But that's of course German round rigging, but I will use it on British planes too, if my Prym attempt fails

The good thing about rigging is the enormous relive when you did your first and the result is satisfying. Like you Phil, I spent lots of thoughts and research before starting, like a big bow wave ahead of me. When you sit at your bench and you see the first results is where the grinning starts and then, the former dreaded step is actually fun.

Cheers Rob

[Clunkmeister]

Rob, that’s exactly it! .12 Maxima Chameleon line.   In my opinion, the nest there is.  It’s small, really small, but the brownish color makes it stand out nicely. Plus, if it absolutely must be silver or black for a certain project, it accepts a paint pen or even a Sharpie marker quite well.

I like Bobs Buckles eyelets. I’m way too lazy to wind my own, and buy his by the thousand.  They come in handy for a bunch if things, actually. Coax antenna anchors come to mind...

I’ve used his tubes for turnbuckles before, and are nice, but to me, are quite overscale for my liking. Just like 1/32 Gaspatch.  RB photoetch turnbuckles are OK as well, quite scale looking, but are PE and require some glue or paint in the center to puff them up a bit.

The biggest killer to any biplane build, in my opinion, has always been turnbuckles. With proper care, they look phenomenal. But there always seems to be ‘that one’ turnbuckle that is not aligned properly with the line. So you get the turnbuckle at a 40 degree angle where the line runs at a 45 degree angle. I’m the guiltiest old sod in the world for doing this. No matter how hard you try, there’s always one, somewhere on the model.  Des’s site offered a solution that dense old me never even thought of until I saw it in print.   

Instead of anchoring the end of a one ended turnbuckle into the wing, use an eyelet instead, then tie the buckle to the eyelet with a short 1 mm or so length of line. That way, the turnbuckle is “loose” and can swivel to align itself with the wire once it’s run.  Simple, so simple that I never thought of it.  

It might not be 100% scale, but if you use 1/48 turnbuckles, it looks nice, no matter the Nationality of the airplane. 

[Bomber_County]

That equates to a 2lb line @ 0.005 = 0.127mm

 

[Clunkmeister]

That line is too thick.  I use .12 mm line, same as Rob

It's a 2lb line

Bob von Buckle originally gave me the link for it, you might want to contact him as well