I've just left that other awful forum for good following yet another poor interaction with another member

[npb748r]

It wasn't bad but it was the straw that broke the camels back. Too many unnecessary rude and aggressive responses from other forum members. I just don't get why people are like that. I'll stick here permanently, much friendlier and a far happier place. 

neil 

[mark31]

welcome and i also left there .

 

Mark

[GazzaS]

Welcome, Neil.

 

[PanzerWomble]

Thats a shame , their loss our gain though 😄

 

You can build yer Mossie in peace here. 

[npb748r]

indeed I can - still not plucked up courage to start it yet but I'm off on holiday shortly and planning on getting some mossie related books to take with me, hoping the break and reading will give me the kick I need to start it !!

[KevinM]

I hear ya Neil I still visit to look not much in the way of commenting  but do at times.

[Bomber_County]

Well done Neil, since I left TOS, I haven’t even opened the site since. I’ve started my Mossie by the way…….

[HubertB]

As you have been here for some time, it’s not really a « welcome », but I look forward to see more of your contributions on LSM, Neil.

As for the reason you have parted ways with LSP, not only am I 120 % with you, but I have read some appallingly  stupid or outrageous reactions since you last post. That people can dub any type of criticism of - or negative stance against - current Russia as « politics » is an unbelievable lack of insight and of citizen’s conscience, or cowardice, or both, as In Munich times. And to equate the suffering of Ukrainians with the alleged one of  Russians people is indecent to say the least.

Quinta Studio products are truly fantastic, no question about that. But I cannot, in conscience, buy any of them as long as the Russian unlawful agression of Ukraine goes on. I know other members take a different view, however.

Hubert

[Clunkmeister]

I’m certainly glad we are here as an alternative to TOS. I’ve never quite grasped their animosity over there. I’m even very good friends with one of their long-standing serving Mods over there, and he just throws his hands in the air and says, “good grief it’s just little plastic airplanes”. He’s mystified by the moronism that thrives there.

I’ve always held that there is room for two really good large scale forums on the web, and I know most here belong to, and post on both. That’s how it should be, IMHO.  Personally, I can’t even bring myself to join again. Ever. I’m done. 
During the big web shitshow over the Helldiver kit fubars and the fixes we figured out here, I contacted them directly and offered outright my descriptions, pics, and workarounds. Not to puff anyone up, but to help modelers who may not look in here alot.  I heard nary a peep.  As in radio silence.  I think someone from here eventually posted a link to the fix in their Val thread, which is good, but it wasn’t someone on staff, it was a member.   I just don’t get those guys.

Anyway, y’all, welcome (again). I know we’re not as busy as them, but most of our content is meaningful and there is zero hate and discontent. 
Tomorrow, the Val should be here and I’ll give it an in depth look with a review and thoughts.  So far, comments are that it may be a game changer for Infinity. 

[JohnB]

On 5/4/2023 at 1:49 AM, npb748r said:

It wasn't bad but it was the straw that broke the camels back. Too many unnecessary rude and aggressive responses from other forum members. I just don't get why people are like that. I'll stick here permanently, much friendlier and a far happier place. 

neil 

Me also Neil.

[Clunkmeister]

I don’t understand the willingness of so many to simply accept the constant bullying, personal attacks, and disparaging remarks.

They, for the Love of God, finally recently banned Jennings and one or two other perpetual troublemakers after living with it for the best part of a decade of abuse and reports made. 
I remember once over there I was suddenly attacked by an apparently less than 100% sane individual, who, because of a hobby of mine involving collecting and displaying antique military arms, stated that I personally have the blood of every murdered child the world has known, on my own hands. He was simply asked to take a few weeks to reevaluate himself, and I was told not to respond. LOL

I choose not to a part of the Romper Room Crowd. I’m damn near 60, and I’m sick of that crap.

[PanzerWomble]

Some nice people there as well who I still miss , and some very talented folk too . 

The treatment of Maru, and the apparent indifference of the owners regarding all that, was what made me decide not to support them anymore. Clearly DGAF .  A sad end after being there for 12 years on and off . 

It's "only plastic toy aircraft FFS ".....ain't that the truth . 

[Peterpools]

Welcome Neil, enjoy LSM and have fun building. 

I left LSP many years ago, had my membership terminated and never looked back. 

 

[KevinM]

6 hours ago, Clunkmeister said:

I remember once over there I was suddenly attacked by an apparently less than 100% sane individual, who, because of a hobby of mine involving collecting and displaying antique military arms, stated that I personally have the blood of every murdered child the world has known, on my own hands.

Same thing happened to me Ernie maybe 10/12 years ago someone whom if memory serves me right was in the medical field just went off calling it Gun Porn and it's evils.I was like WTF!?Plus you know I can build some decent stuff from time to time but really I am just a builder but I had a build with like 250 views maybe not a peep I mean not ONE?I was going it's not that bad?I told Matt to pull the thread trash can it I never posted another build there since methinks.

[Artful69]

I for one am sick of the political comments still being allowed on THIS forum … can we please leave the virtue signalling to the other forums and focus on modelling … I’m sick of seeing Ukraine this and Ukraine that with blue and yellow flags everywhere as if they are the righteousness of God while the other is portrayed as pure evil (just like the western press, the elites and political establishment want it!!!) … They are BOTH responsible for the mess that is happening over there - tragic as it is … can we leave our personal political opinions OFF the forum like the rules explicitly state??

TIA

Rog 😡

[Clunkmeister]

Rog, political and openly religious posts are not supposed to be on the public part of the forum. We DID do a Ukraine GB, but it was all encompassing. Maybe a mistake? Who knows, but it brought in new builders who had never been here before. 
I know there are comments about this and that regarding AM and kitmakers in that part of the world, but I, for one, buy from manufacturers on both sides.

As far as religion, what do you refer?  Personally, I say “I pray” this or that, but it’s a figure of speech. Or “I’m feeling blessed” as in something great happened, or whatever.  We have a Christmas raffle. We wish Happy Easter.  ’m praying for your fast recovery”, etc. If I’m missing something, let me know. Please. 
We build models of warplanes and armor. Plus ships, etc. that by their very nature are “political” as they have National markings.  I personally despise what the crooked cross has become. But our models feature it.

Please do me a favor.  If you see something, say something. PM me, please. What I may see as an innocent comment, others may see as unwise.  I can’t be everywhere, and neither can anyone else. We added two Global Mods to help Fran, Jeroen, and I in our jobs. 
We want LSM to be an inviting forum for all.  Whatever Nationality, Creed, Color, Male, Female, everything.  Nobody’s perfect, so please help us out!  
 

[Artful69]

2 hours ago, Clunkmeister said:

Rog, political and openly religious posts are not supposed to be on the public part of the forum. We DID do a Ukraine GB, but it was all encompassing. Maybe a mistake? Who knows, but it brought in new builders who had never been here before. 
I know there are comments about this and that regarding AM and kitmakers in that part of the world, but I, for one, buy from manufacturers on both sides.

As far as religion, what do you refer?  Personally, I say “I pray” this or that, but it’s a figure of speech. Or “I’m feeling blessed” as in something great happened, or whatever.  We have a Christmas raffle. We wish Happy Easter.  ’m praying for your fast recovery”, etc. If I’m missing something, let me know. Please. 
We build models of warplanes and armor. Plus ships, etc. that by their very nature are “political” as they have National markings.  I personally despise what the crooked cross has become. But our models feature it.

Please do me a favor.  If you see something, say something. PM me, please. What I may see as an innocent comment, others may see as unwise.  I can’t be everywhere, and neither can anyone else. We added two Global Mods to help Fran, Jeroen, and I in our jobs. 
We want LSM to be an inviting forum for all.  Whatever Nationality, Creed, Color, Male, Female, everything.  Nobody’s perfect, so please help us out!  
 

I think none of us have ever had an issue with religion on the forums … as Christian as I am, if I ever saw anyone posting bigoted crap against anyone Jewish, Islamic or Hindu for example, I would make the same comment as I did relating to the Ill-informed political crap posted above … support who you want, for whatever reason you want … just don’t post it here - I don’t need opinion rammed down my gullet!!

Rog

[PanzerWomble]

3 hours ago, Artful69 said:

I think none of us have ever had an issue with religion on the forums … as Christian as I am, if I ever saw anyone posting bigoted crap against anyone Jewish, Islamic or Hindu for example, I would make the same comment as I did relating to the Ill-informed political crap posted above … support who you want, for whatever reason you want … just don’t post it here - I don’t need opinion rammed down my gullet!!

Rog

Just use the ignore button to filter out comments from people you think are throbbers ?

[Artful69]

53 minutes ago, PanzerWomble said:

Just use the ignore button to filter out comments from people you think are throbbers ?

True … but besides the point …

No-one should have to hide from someone breaching forum rules …

Rog

[npb748r]

3 hours ago, PanzerWomble said:

Just use the ignore button to filter out comments from people you think are throbbers ?

I never knew that was there, just found it and worked out how to use it. Makes me wonder what other useful stuff is lurking waiting to be found !!!! 

Also had to look up what a throbber was.  Whilst trying to work out your use of wit relating to the wiki translation of "A throbber, also known as a loading icon, is an animated graphical control element used to show that a computer program is performing an action in the background" I happened to look further down the page and found the slang translation which made me laugh loudly !!! 😁

[HubertB]

18 hours ago, Artful69 said:

I for one am sick of the political comments still being allowed on THIS forum … can we please leave the virtue signalling to the other forums and focus on modelling … I’m sick of seeing Ukraine this and Ukraine that with blue and yellow flags everywhere as if they are the righteousness of God while the other is portrayed as pure evil (just like the western press, the elites and political establishment want it!!!) … They are BOTH responsible for the mess that is happening over there - tragic as it is … can we leave our personal political opinions OFF the forum like the rules explicitly state??

TIA

Rog 😡

Rog,

Since I took it that it was my post that triggered yours, I have hesitated to reply, to avoid fueling conflict. However, I have pondered this through, and thought I shoudl try to express views in a more structured way, which hopefully will enlighten everyone.

 

A. Politics

 

« Politics » is understood in two ways, with one I'd dub of a higher level than the other.

 

- As defined by Greek philosophers – Socrates, Aristote and Plato – politics refers to the all the elements that organise a « city » (in the Greek sense of the word) or more generally to the elements that organise the interactions between the different members of a human group : it defines the structure, the means of action, the workings (theoretical, methodological, practical), the internal relationships of this group of humans – and external relationships with other groups -, and the aims of this group over time.

They had different views about the best form of politics, but the philosophers named above all agreed that the essence of politics was to act for the greater good of the community, exercising its actions towards an ideal of « good ».

In this definition, politics permeate our lives, both collectively and individually, and there is nothing really wrong about thinking about them, or expressing your thoughts, even in a modelling forum, IMHO.

- the more common modern acception of the word « politics » is about the way the power to rule the group is exercised, the fights for acquiring this power, for gaining prevalence of an individual's, or of a sub-group's, ideas, for obtaining a public representation of these ideas. There can be different views, of course, and not all will have the same balance between the goals of achieving the greater common good, and the goals of promoting individuals' interests. This is where there should be forums to express these views, but definitely NOT on a modelling forum.

 

B. Democracy

 

I feel it is important to explicit what democracy stands for in our modern societies, as it will enlighten the perception of the Ukraine/Russia situation.

 

Democracy is – literally – the « Power of the People ». In Greek cities, it was exercised directly, each citizen participating to the politics of the city by expressing his vote about the best course of action. This concept still exists today, and is very lively in certain parts of the world, but the growth of the size of the groups has led to a reflection about the most efficient way for the people to express this power.

Democracy has been theorised after the Middle Ages, by other philosophers like Montesquieu, Montaigne, Locke, to name the most prominent.

First and foremost in a democracy is the Law, a written text that defines the way the group wants to organise itself, to organise the relationships between its members, to manage the power, exercise it, and the ways to best represent, durably, the will of the People. There is no democracy without this Law, aka Constitution.

Second is the way the group organises itself to delegate the collective power of the People to a chosen group of individuals.

Third is the reflection about the different types of power that exist in a society, and it was summed up as 3 difefrent powers : 1. The judicial power that rules and enforces the relationships between individuals, by being the custodian of the Law. 2. The legislative power is elected by the citizens to represent their views, and to translate these into evolutions, or enlargments, of the Law. 3. The executive power has a delegation, by the elected representants of the People, to effectively manage the way the society operates, to define and put in place the collective means by which the collective goals can be achieved, to collect the resources with which this will will be put into action.

Fourth, the aim of a democracy is to act of the greater good, and as such, it is essential to have checks and balances that are all aimed at avoiding Tiranny (back to Greek times …). Thus the separation of powers is a fundamental of democracy, and more specifically the judicial power should remain independant of the legislative and executive powers, and the legislative power put in place the necessary controls to verify that the executive power acts according to the will of the People.

 

C. Ukraine vs Russia : politics and democracy

 

You have expressed, more than once, the view that we should send both parties back-to-back, that they share a split responsibility in the conflict, that we do not have an absolute good on one side, and absolute evil on the other side.

I'll expedite the Russian case quickly : there is no discussion that current Russia is NOT a democracy, starting with the lack of sepration of powers, the confiscation of a major share of common resources by a small oligarchy, the – litteral – elimination of dissenting opinions, the suppression of means for the people to learn about any other opinion than the one expressed by the executive power, and finally the disregard of the law, including the one that rules the relationships between different countries.

As for Ukraine, I'll focus on the period since the fall of the USSR (in which, by the way, Russia ratified the borders of Ukraine and recognised their sovereignty).

There is no denying that from 1991 to Maidan, Ukraine was a failing democracy, copying its practices on that of Russia, and having an oligarchy effectively ruling the country to best serve its own interests. The most worrying was the complete lack of independance, and furthermore the absolute corruption, of the judicial system.

By history of the USSR, and before that of Russia, Ukraine was struggling to shake the influence of Russia, and the intervention, more or less covertly, of Russia in Ukrainian politics.

In 2014, Maidan was a breaking point : the Ukrainian people finally started to shake the yoke of its neighbour, and express they wanted a different future than the one imposed by Russia. They truly made a mistake then by pushing the cursor a bit too far, trying to promulgate a law that banned Russian as an official second langage in the country.

This gave Poutin the excuse the « come to the rescue » of the « Russian people », in fact russian-speaking people, by triggering a serie of civilian unrests in the Eastern parts of Ukraine, and in Crimea, and finally setting-up a military intervention in both Donbass and Crimea, in total disrespect of international law and of the 1991 treaties. Hitler did not do differently when he went to the « rescue » of the « Deutsches Volk » , effectively annexing Austria, and invading the Sudete area of Tchequoslovaquia, then complaining about the supposed suffering of Dantzig isolated in Polish territory (and I do not forget the French pacifist's slogan "who wants to die for Dantzig ?")…

By February 2022, Ukraine was still anything like a model democracy. Zelinsky was elected in what was basically a cock-fight between oligarchs (his camp owning the most powerful Ukrainian TV channel), and surfing on a created image – via a TV show - of an « ideal » politician fighting the established corruption of the political classes. But he had failed to make a significant progress towards the standards of democracy as we expect them in Europe, in the US, or Australia.

And Putin never accepted the snub inflicted by Maidan, and was therefore unwilling to progress any of the peace talks about Donbass or Crimea.

 

D. The 2022 war

 

Whatever we think of the Ukrainian politics by 24/02/2022, a number of facts are irrefutable :

1) Russia started an invasion war of a neighboring country, expecting to draw it back in its sphere of influence

2) In doing so, Russia not only disregarded international laws, but also the will of the Ukrainian people.

3) The war has been conducted in a most brutal way, here again disregarding any moral principles, and respect for the civilian population.

4) As a result of this war :

• more than 11 million Ukrainian people have been displaced, of which 8 million outside of their country

• Ukrainian direct civil deaths are evaluated at more than 21 000 to date,

• an estimate of 80 000 war crimes have been allegedly commited by occupying Russian troops, including forced deportation of thousands of children, and the systematic use of rape as a "psychological" weapon

• an estimate of $138 billion worth of damage has been inflicted to Ukrainian infrastructures, including 150 000 residential buildings, 3000 schools, 300 hospitals …

• Ukrainian GDP fell by more than 35 %. More importantly, the war has triggered a significant crop decrease of the country, and an even stronger drop of its grain exports, leading to a global food crisis.

• An estimate of Ukrainian military casualties (killed or wounded) gives a number as high as 125/130 000, of wich 12 % are KIA.

In the meantime, Russia has also suffered from the consequences of its agression

• thousands and thousands of military equipment have been destroyed, representing a cost of billions upon billions of dollars

• military casulaties are estimated at a staggering 170/200 000 (which is about 75 % of the force initially committed to the invasion), of which some 45 000 KIA.

• The Russian GDP has shrunk by 2 to3 %, Not that much, as it proved more resilient than some expected, and the sanctions were mostly aimed at the militaro-industrial capacities of the country, and holding assets fo the oligarchs supporting the regime. However, a part of the world is learning to do without Russian raw materials, which is not a good omen for the future of this country.

 

In this respect, I do not think that sending both countries back-to-back in the responsibility chain is a fair assessment of the situation and events.

The thoughts that sprung to my mind when I read this were « Pilatus washing his hands (of an internal Jewish issue) », or the words of Arnaud Amaury, a Cistercian abbot, papal legate, during the Albigeois Crusade « Kill them all, and God will recognise His ! ». The numbers show an indisproportionate amount of suffering for the Ukrainian people, compared to that of the Russian people.

That's just my immediate reaction, of course, and you remain perfectly entitled to your opinion.

I am also irritated when I read there is no reason the Russian people should suffer, or the « Mom and Pop » businesses of Russia should be affected. In the current political status of Russia, a change of policy can only happen if the Russian people say « enough ! ». I dare say that they need some more suffering to really start questioning to official propaganda and reacting.

As a reminder, the « Mothers' movement », that forced the pull-out of Aghanistan by USSR, was started by the 15 000 deads of the conflict (in 10 years). When will the Russian mothers say « Stop ! » to Putin ?

 

As for buying a Russian-made product during the conflict, we are back to the core of Politics, in the most noble sense of the word : « As a member of a greater community, called Humanity, should I choose a small action for – hopefully - the greater good of Humanity in the long term, or should I just focus on the personal short-term satisfaction of a great-looking cockpit in a 1/32 scale-model ? »

 

End of the essay

 

Hubert

 

[Artful69]

4 hours ago, HubertB said:

Rog,

Since I took it that it was my post that triggered yours, I have hesitated to reply, to avoid fueling conflict. However, I have pondered this through, and thought I shoudl try to express views in a more structured way, which hopefully will enlighten everyone.

 

A. Politics

 

« Politics » is understood in two ways, with one I'd dub of a higher level than the other.

 

- As defined by Greek philosophers – Socrates, Aristote and Plato – politics refers to the all the elements that organise a « city » (in the Greek sense of the word) or more generally to the elements that organise the interactions between the different members of a human group : it defines the structure, the means of action, the workings (theoretical, methodological, practical), the internal relationships of this group of humans – and external relationships with other groups -, and the aims of this group over time.

They had different views about the best form of politics, but the philosophers named above all agreed that the essence of politics was to act for the greater good of the community, exercising its actions towards an ideal of « good ».

In this definition, politics permeate our lives, both collectively and individually, and there is nothing really wrong about thinking about them, or expressing your thoughts, even in a modelling forum, IMHO.

- the more common modern acception of the word « politics » is about the way the power to rule the group is exercised, the fights for acquiring this power, for gaining prevalence of an individual's, or of a sub-group's, ideas, for obtaining a public representation of these ideas. There can be different views, of course, and not all will have the same balance between the goals of achieving the greater common good, and the goals of promoting individuals' interests. This is where there should be forums to express these views, but definitely NOT on a modelling forum.

 

B. Democracy

 

I feel it is important to explicit what democracy stands for in our modern societies, as it will enlighten the perception of the Ukraine/Russia situation.

 

Democracy is – literally – the « Power of the People ». In Greek cities, it was exercised directly, each citizen participating to the politics of the city by expressing his vote about the best course of action. This concept still exists today, and is very lively in certain parts of the world, but the growth of the size of the groups has led to a reflection about the most efficient way for the people to express this power.

Democracy has been theorised after the Middle Ages, by other philosophers like Montesquieu, Montaigne, Locke, to name the most prominent.

First and foremost in a democracy is the Law, a written text that defines the way the group wants to organise itself, to organise the relationships between its members, to manage the power, exercise it, and the ways to best represent, durably, the will of the People. There is no democracy without this Law, aka Constitution.

Second is the way the group organises itself to delegate the collective power of the People to a chosen group of individuals.

Third is the reflection about the different types of power that exist in a society, and it was summed up as 3 difefrent powers : 1. The judicial power that rules and enforces the relationships between individuals, by being the custodian of the Law. 2. The legislative power is elected by the citizens to represent their views, and to translate these into evolutions, or enlargments, of the Law. 3. The executive power has a delegation, by the elected representants of the People, to effectively manage the way the society operates, to define and put in place the collective means by which the collective goals can be achieved, to collect the resources with which this will will be put into action.

Fourth, the aim of a democracy is to act of the greater good, and as such, it is essential to have checks and balances that are all aimed at avoiding Tiranny (back to Greek times …). Thus the separation of powers is a fundamental of democracy, and more specifically the judicial power should remain independant of the legislative and executive powers, and the legislative power put in place the necessary controls to verify that the executive power acts according to the will of the People.

 

C. Ukraine vs Russia : politics and democracy

 

You have expressed, more than once, the view that we should send both parties back-to-back, that they share a split responsibility in the conflict, that we do not have an absolute good on one side, and absolute evil on the other side.

I'll expedite the Russian case quickly : there is no discussion that current Russia is NOT a democracy, starting with the lack of sepration of powers, the confiscation of a major share of common resources by a small oligarchy, the – litteral – elimination of dissenting opinions, the suppression of means for the people to learn about any other opinion than the one expressed by the executive power, and finally the disregard of the law, including the one that rules the relationships between different countries.

As for Ukraine, I'll focus on the period since the fall of the USSR (in which, by the way, Russia ratified the borders of Ukraine and recognised their sovereignty).

There is no denying that from 1991 to Maidan, Ukraine was a failing democracy, copying its practices on that of Russia, and having an oligarchy effectively ruling the country to best serve its own interests. The most worrying was the complete lack of independance, and furthermore the absolute corruption, of the judicial system.

By history of the USSR, and before that of Russia, Ukraine was struggling to shake the influence of Russia, and the intervention, more or less covertly, of Russia in Ukrainian politics.

In 2014, Maidan was a breaking point : the Ukrainian people finally started to shake the yoke of its neighbour, and express they wanted a different future than the one imposed by Russia. They truly made a mistake then by pushing the cursor a bit too far, trying to promulgate a law that banned Russian as an official second langage in the country.

This gave Poutin the excuse the « come to the rescue » of the « Russian people », in fact russian-speaking people, by triggering a serie of civilian unrests in the Eastern parts of Ukraine, and in Crimea, and finally setting-up a military intervention in both Donbass and Crimea, in total disrespect of international law and of the 1991 treaties. Hitler did not do differently when he went to the « rescue » of the « Deutsches Volk » , effectively annexing Austria, and invading the Sudete area of Tchequoslovaquia, then complaining about the supposed suffering of Dantzig isolated in Polish territory (and I do not forget the French pacifist's slogan "who wants to die for Dantzig ?")…

By February 2022, Ukraine was still anything like a model democracy. Zelinsky was elected in what was basically a cock-fight between oligarchs (his camp owning the most powerful Ukrainian TV channel), and surfing on a created image – via a TV show - of an « ideal » politician fighting the established corruption of the political classes. But he had failed to make a significant progress towards the standards of democracy as we expect them in Europe, in the US, or Australia.

And Putin never accepted the snub inflicted by Maidan, and was therefore unwilling to progress any of the peace talks about Donbass or Crimea.

 

D. The 2022 war

 

Whatever we think of the Ukrainian politics by 24/02/2022, a number of facts are irrefutable :

1) Russia started an invasion war of a neighboring country, expecting to draw it back in its sphere of influence

2) In doing so, Russia not only disregarded international laws, but also the will of the Ukrainian people.

3) The war has been conducted in a most brutal way, here again disregarding any moral principles, and respect for the civilian population.

4) As a result of this war :

• more than 11 million Ukrainian people have been displaced, of which 8 million outside of their country

• Ukrainian direct civil deaths are evaluated at more than 21 000 to date,

• an estimate of 80 000 war crimes have been allegedly commited by occupying Russian troops, including forced deportation of thousands of children, and the systematic use of rape as a "psychological" weapon

• an estimate of $138 billion worth of damage has been inflicted to Ukrainian infrastructures, including 150 000 residential buildings, 3000 schools, 300 hospitals …

• Ukrainian GDP fell by more than 35 %. More importantly, the war has triggered a significant crop decrease of the country, and an even stronger drop of its grain exports, leading to a global food crisis.

• An estimate of Ukrainian military casualties (killed or wounded) gives a number as high as 125/130 000, of wich 12 % are KIA.

In the meantime, Russia has also suffered from the consequences of its agression

• thousands and thousands of military equipment have been destroyed, representing a cost of billions upon billions of dollars

• military casulaties are estimated at a staggering 170/200 000 (which is about 75 % of the force initially committed to the invasion), of which some 45 000 KIA.

• The Russian GDP has shrunk by 2 to3 %, Not that much, as it proved more resilient than some expected, and the sanctions were mostly aimed at the militaro-industrial capacities of the country, and holding assets fo the oligarchs supporting the regime. However, a part of the world is learning to do without Russian raw materials, which is not a good omen for the future of this country.

 

In this respect, I do not think that sending both countries back-to-back in the responsibility chain is a fair assessment of the situation and events.

The thoughts that sprung to my mind when I read this were « Pilatus washing his hands (of an internal Jewish issue) », or the words of Arnaud Amaury, a Cistercian abbot, papal legate, during the Albigeois Crusade « Kill them all, and God will recognise His ! ». The numbers show an indisproportionate amount of suffering for the Ukrainian people, compared to that of the Russian people.

That's just my immediate reaction, of course, and you remain perfectly entitled to your opinion.

I am also irritated when I read there is no reason the Russian people should suffer, or the « Mom and Pop » businesses of Russia should be affected. In the current political status of Russia, a change of policy can only happen if the Russian people say « enough ! ». I dare say that they need some more suffering to really start questioning to official propaganda and reacting.

As a reminder, the « Mothers' movement », that forced the pull-out of Aghanistan by USSR, was started by the 15 000 deads of the conflict (in 10 years). When will the Russian mothers say « Stop ! » to Putin ?

 

As for buying a Russian-made product during the conflict, we are back to the core of Politics, in the most noble sense of the word : « As a member of a greater community, called Humanity, should I choose a small action for – hopefully - the greater good of Humanity in the long term, or should I just focus on the personal short-term satisfaction of a great-looking cockpit in a 1/32 scale-model ? »

 

End of the essay

 

Hubert

 

Hubert …

Again … this post is in direct breach of the rules of this forum. I do not need to be lectured to by you or anyone else - I am quite capable of doing my own research, should I wish to. Your ‘essay’ (of which I have tried my best to ignore for the most part and restricted my read to a paragraph or two) holds a heavy bias on certain ‘truths’ while ignoring others as ALL political arguments do …

This forum is for modelling purposes. In respect for ALL members on it please remove your political views and stick to the subject matter and rules prescribed. Should you feel so passionately about a particular politically related subject - there are forums for this elsewhere. 

Rog

[James H]

11 hours ago, PanzerWomble said:

people you think are throbbers ?

PMSL!!

Not hear that term for ages! I can tell you're UK 🤣

[James H]

Calm down folks. Let it drop. Pointless gong round in circles and beating each other up.

As you were!

[PanzerWomble]

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