Share how COVID-19 Quarantine has affected you.

[Martinnfb]

[Wumm]

On 9/22/2020 at 5:27 PM, BradG said:

One thing that seems to be eroding fast are our rights here. Now the government is trying (and probably will) pass a law that allows police, or anyone who is designated a Justice of the Peace, to arrest and confine a person indefinitely without charge and only on the suspicion they may break a law.

Scary, scary stuff here in Melbourne. Imagine how that could be abused. Just think, an untrained person could be allowed to detain someone with no evidence of wrongdoing, without appeal and without question for as long as they want on a suspicion.

Australia doesn't need to be invaded by China, we're going to turn into a Communist dictatorship by ourselves!

It seems patently obvious that the proposed Victorian Omnibus Bill is in breach of many of the provisions of the Victorian Charter of Human Rights; more specifically:

*The right to move freely within Victoria

*The right to hold an opinion, and freedom of expression

*The right to protest peacefully and gather together

*The right not to be arrested or detained unfairly

*The right to be treated humanely when arrested or detained.

The Charter also dictates that all Laws introduced must be accompanied by notations that explain how the new Laws are compatible with said Charter. That particular provision would be a very interesting read. Already Civil Libertarians and a former Police Commissioner have indicated that the Omnibus Bill runs counter to the rights inherent in what is ostensibly a free and democratic Society. The one consolation is that at least this Bill must pass the Victorian Parliament, unlike some recent actions undertaken in other Nations that have been inacted without Parliamentary oversight. 

Visions of Victoria Police physically dragging a Woman from her vehicle citing failure to produce valid ID, while she held a pass in her hand to enter a Hot Zone with all her details contained within, don't help the narrative. Nor do arrests of people for incitement to gather; when a Barrister worth his or her salt could likely argue that Victorian Authorities' tacit allowance of BLM protests are notionally the very same thing.

It is becoming increasingly apparent that lockdown and enforced isolation measures are becoming less about Health issues; and more about economic and Civilian control, at least here in Australia. A fortnight ago; the Queensland Premier continued to conduct official business, traveling extensively and visiting Regional centres over the course of four days while exhibiting a sore throat and laryngitis. When she finally went for a Covid test, the Chief Health Officer defended her actions, saying that a sore throat was not a Covid symptom... This despite all of their advertising stating that it was... or put another way, why the need for the test then? On Monday, the West Australian Premier let slip during a press conference that he was keeping their border closed not for any Health reasons, but because he was fearful that West Australians would leave the State and spend their money elsewhere!

Border restrictions are gradually being relaxed here. We can visit areas to the south in northern New South Wales without a pass, but Sydney residents are still banned from Queensland. Paradoxically, I can go to a Pub just South of the border; and stand at the Bar beside a Sydney resident on holiday who is able to travel freely around New South Wales, contract Covid from him or her and bring it back into the State without ever knowing or being stopped or checked at the border.

S

[BradG]

Meanwhile we in Victoria still cannot go more than 5kms from our house. The curfew was dropped, only because the Liberal politician was making a court challenge to it. You wouldn't believe that after all this being the fault of the government (although they all have collective amnesia and can't remember who made some decisions), contract security was STILL being used to guard quarantine hotels. 

[Bomber_County]

Well I survived the first wave of redundancies but still on furlough until end of Oct. The consensus is that if there is still no work, round two begins 1st Nov. Talk about dead man walking........and there’s not a damn thing I can do about it.........

[[CAT]CplSlade]

There is a consortium of medical experts around the world who want the lockdowns to end before the global situation gets worse, but I am pretty sure it's a bit late for a lot if people. Glad I don't work for Regal Cinema. Among other places. 

This sucks, man.

[GazzaS]

Just watching the news...  I watch various sources and other news programs from other nations.  Europe seems to be reeling as infections spread and they talk about further lockdowns.  Pretty depressing.

 

Over 1 million documented deaths in 36 million documented cases.  That works out as 2.78 percent of the infected cases.   If you believe what many write over at farcebook, the true percentage is less than 1/2 of a percent.  As for me...  I don't believe the small numbers given by nations like China.  Totalitarian regimes tend to downplay the effects of disasters upon their nations.

 

Now...  I've seen plenty of shit on farcebook.  Ppl claiming that most of the deaths attributed to Covid are actually from other causes.  It's all 'fake news'.  etc. etc.  Everyone has an opinion, often based on their special interest.

 

Because I'm in sluggish morning mode, I decided to do a little math with free online calculators. 
The current world population is 7540000000....  That's 7 and 1/2 billion for those who find themselves swimming in a sea of zeroes.  Anyway...  2.78 percent of 7.5 billion is almost 21 million people.  That's still less than half of what the Spanish flu killed.  Maybe we shouldn't be concerned...  it's only half!

 

Business is obviously an even bigger casualty.  Now watching a program on the end of the 747 jumbo jet.  The program mentions that they don't expect large scale air travel to resume for another four or five years.

 

Personally...  I fear the day it knocks on my door.  My wife, daughter, and granddaughter are all people I consider sickly and not physically strong.  That's not to say that this fat, middle-aged man won't be taken down by it, too.  I do have a congenital heart condition, though it seems to reach full ferocity when my family gets into the 70's...  those of us who carry the trait, anyway.

 

So...I'm not keen to roll the dice.  I'm notoriously unlucky when it comes to boardgames where results are dice driven.

 

I notice some people are worried about the erosion of their civil rights...  or personal rights.  What to say to these people?  I was watching some program where the spread of the Black Death was traceable in the local records of some English villages.  The rate of spread was the same rate as walking distance from village to village.  If you open the gates, the virus will get in and people will die. 

 

I guess to some, it doesn't matter until it's someone close.

 

The thread title is 'how has Covid affected you'.  For once in my life, my shitty job is a lifesaver.  So, I'm not affected financially.  But Covid does prey upon my mind.  I just hope it never preys upon my family.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TJTX]

I could die in my car on the way to dinner tonight.  I could die flying on Sunday.  I could die choking in my hotel room tomorrow.  The end result of life is always death.  Let me worry about what I consider acceptable levels of risk I'm willing to place upon myself and my family.   Most people would think the aerobatics I used to fly was extremely dangerous, but I knew the risk and knew how to best mitigate them.  If the worst happened I was ok with that because I chose my lifes course.  Live your life how you choose  (you not being directed at a specific person), and let me live mine.  Personal freedom and accountability is the most important thing to me.  

[[CAT]CplSlade]

Well, regardless of where people stand, I prefer a more reasoned approach to all of this which is why I support professionally-esteemed doctors like Martin Kulldorff and Jay Bhattacharya, because they and their fellows have thought about the consequences of a sustained lockdown and know it is another example of cure worth than the disease. Dr. Fauci was supposed to offer a 0%-death rate scenario which can never actually be achieved when you consider SARS and HIV let alone seasonal flu, and that's what he has done. But it will wreck society getting there and even he has acknowledged that. He wasn't asked to worry about saving society; just lives. Lives sell better than the economy. Politicians and media used the '0% or bust' rhetoric to fearmonger people into staying inside months past the original 15-day plan. "Stay inside; it's the patriotic thing to do!" If they keep us cooped up inside our 'caves' they best hope we don't transform into Morlocks because that didn't go too well for those on top. You'd think a platform that often likes to promote sustainability wouldn't go for a policy that is unsustainable.

[Jeff]

You guys all have valid points, and Tony, I feel the same as you do, let ME make an INFORMED decision, where I get my back up is when , as I have mentioned before, IDIOT Politicians , who ALL have a personal agenda, make the decisions for me.... yes make suggestions based on known FACTS, and they can ALL cut the rhetoric on how the 'other guy' isn't doing it right....  I would , personally like to have a little control over my own destiny. Of course, that doesn't mean being silly and reckless.......... we are not 'sheeple'.............

[BradG]

The good news is that although there is a second wave in Europe and the UK, the deaths don't seem to have spiked with the second wave. 

Gaz your maths is a bit off, 2.78% of 7.54 billion is a touch under 210 million (I think you missed a zero). However, I do agree that this virus is not as deadly as we are being told. Most people who die of this, have underlying serious health issues. Out here in Australia, the average age of a victim is 83 and around 700 of the 900 victims have been in aged care. The average length of stay in aged care in Australia for an elderly person is less than 3 years. 

I was also listening to one of the top people in the virus research field this morning, they said that for every person identified with the virus, there is at least 7 undiagnosed cases of people who are asymptomatic or have very mild symptoms. This again means the virus is not as deadly as we are being told.

[Drdave]

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases
 

As you can see, Covid has killed 3 times more UK citizens than flu and Pneumonia combined. 

I can personally attest that is a very deadly and highly contagious disease that often takes 28 days or more to die from.

[BradG]

2 hours ago, Drdave said:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases
 

As you can see, Covid has killed 3 times more UK citizens than flu and Pneumonia combined. 

I can personally attest that is a very deadly and highly contagious disease that often takes 28 days or more to die from.

Ironically the average age of a corona virus victim in the UK is 82.4. The average life expectancy in the UK is 81.16.

Not saying the virus isn't dangerous, but it's more dangerous to those over 80 than it is to those under 40.

[Drdave]

Yes it is 

it’s 70 x more lethal to 80+ vs 40 +

average age is pointless because of the numbers of elderly deaths. It’s the median age or middle most that is more important. 
 

it’s still lethal to a significant number of middle aged men, particularly.

[smitty44]

    Over 3 million people die annually from alcohol consumption related deaths, and we put drinking and partying on a pedestal. How long must that scourge go on? We tried to put an end to that once here, and there was essentially a small war fought in opposition. People have long fought for the right to be free and practice freedom, even if it put's their health at risk, and governments have agreed. Thousands of those alcohol related deaths were, in fact, innocent by standers. Smoking, pot , and now and even magic mushrooms in some states. The right to kill ourselves or take risks with our health abounds.

[[CAT]CplSlade]

7 hours ago, Drdave said:

I can personally attest that is a very deadly and highly contagious disease that often takes 28 days or more to die from.

So you died, then?

[Wumm]

1 hour ago, [CAT]CplSlade said:

So you died, then?

No...

Dr.Dave is an actual Doctor, an ICU specialist Physician in the UK. When he says 'personally', he means there for them when Covid Patients drew their last breath.

From the ONS data:

Ostensibly, 1% of total deaths in the UK doesn't appear to be particularly problematic. However; the time, effort and the drain on resources caused by Covid is a major factor. Winter is coming, cases are increasing in the UK, and bed capacity (in green at the end) is filling fast.

Standard medical testing and diagnosis of other conditions is being left by the wayside. For instance, I haven't received my Fecal Occult test in the mail this year, that the Au Government sends out to over 50's on a yearly basis.

Hoping to get it by Halloween...

S

[HubertB]

I do not think that the comparison with other public health crises like alcoholism, illegal drugs consumption, opioid drugs consumption, or, for that matter, tobacco consumption, is a valid one.

First, people have the choice to consume or not these substances. Yes, they can decide to put their health at risk, and one can consider they are thus exercising their personal freedom. But they are normally just putting their own health at risk, and not jeopardising others’ health and well-being. And if they do so by combining the consumption of dangerous substances like alcohol, drugs, opioids, with, for instance driving a car, the  society considers this a offense to law and public order, and rightfully punishes such behavior, and makes these people liable to others for their dangerous attitude.

And, btw, even when they know they are putting their health and lives at risk, they still expect, in our modern societies, to be taken taken care of by our health system if they put themselves in a crisis situation, or develop a heart disease or cancer because of this flirting with dangerous substances. No one would understand if a doctor said « it was your choice, now live - die - with it ! »

With Covid-19, you can argue that putting yourself in an situation to be contaminated is also a personal choice, and that you are exercising your freedom. BUT, if, when contaminated, you then pass on the virus to someone else, who just wanted to be safe, you are no better than the guy who goes driving under influence and kills an innocent bystander by doing so. It’s just the proof of YOUR liability that is harder to demonstrate by the society ... But morally, you're in the same a#!$e league by my book ...
And, just like the alcohol, drug, tobacco, opioid addict, you probably still expect that the health system takes care of you even if your choice increased your risk of being infected ...

However, the point is that a significant percentage of people who get infected with SARS-COV2 end-up in ICU, and that can last a long time, as Dr Dave pointed, and this will put an extraordinary strain on a health system that is designed and dimensioned for a « probable » peace-time ICU beds’ requirement. What happens when all ICU beds are occupied by COVID-19 patients, and you need even more every day because more and more people are coming in sick ? This is called « triage », a soft word to qualify that the medical staff will decide who will benefit from ICU support, and who will be left to die ... Should we then decide that people who exercised their « right » not to wear a mask, not to practice social distancing, not to stay at home when asked for it, would automatically fall in the « no-priority » category ? 
 

Unfortunately, there are no simple answers and solutions to tough questions. Our governments or authorities - at least in democracies - try to balance between conflicting demands : preserving individual rights, yet preserving public health, yet ensuring a healthy economy, yet managing efficiently the health system, yet considering all citizens equal ...

It’s clear the cursor on these different requirements was set differently in different countries. It’s also clear that, to date at least, the ones whose leaders tended to downplay the severity of the issue have fared comparatively worse. It’s also apparent that, where public pressure, or lassitude, tends to relax the safety requirements, the contamination flares up rapidly, and the health systems are quickly under pressure ...
 

As a business owner, I certainly wish the economic consequences of the plague were less severe. As an individual, all the more so as I am in a more  risky category (male, over 60, overweight), I am certainly happy that the government in the country I am living in is enforcing key health-preserving constraints, and that the population, at large, is following them rather than moaning about their restrained freedom. As a citizen, I try to bring my modest contribution to the safety of my peers, and to not contribute to overstressing the health system, by wearing a mask, respecting social distancing, and overall avoiding risky situations and environments.
I certainly wish my life was more like 10 months ago, than what it is now. Unfortunately, this is largely beyond my control. But all in all, I still prefer to be alive albeit slightly poorer, rather than financially wealthy, but seriously sick, or worse, dead ...
As you can guess, I am rather in the camp of being cautious, of taking the threat seriously because, even though I live in an area where the disease is mostly not « visible » , the facts and data show how serious - critical is even a better word - it can quickly become, and accepting constraints for the good of the society. I also understand that some of you can be in a different camp, with other priorities. But will you just keep clear from me, at least in the forthcoming weeks, « just in case »  ?
 

Just my 

 

Hubert

[smitty44]

Its valid to me. Either your free or you aren't. People are free to make the right choices as well.

[Wumm]

Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose...

On 10/12/2020 at 6:26 AM, HubertB said:

I do not think that the comparison with other public health crises like alcoholism, illegal drugs consumption, opioid drugs consumption, or, for that matter, tobacco consumption, is a valid one.

First, people have the choice to consume or not these substances. Yes, they can decide to put their health at risk, and one can consider they are thus exercising their personal freedom. But they are normally just putting their own health at risk, and not jeopardising others’ health and well-being.

Freedom is an abstract construct. Freedom is an individual's own opinion and sense of values that might make little sense to the next person. Freedom and The Golden Rule are at complete opposites of the behavioral spectrum.

On Friday night here in Brisbane, an estimated 20,000 people were locked out of a Football Stadium when there was a ticketing glitch. 20,000 people crammed together in a 200 metre squared space, very few with masks and no-one Social Distancing. 

Very few seemed concerned. No-one was fined, after seeing the Hoard forming ahead of them and choosing to barrel-on in anyway. No one thought to themselves... "My health and my life is worth more to me than the price of a $50 ticket."

5 million people in our state, heading towards 1.2 million Covid tests and yet still only 1,164 positive cases to date. They've tested 20% of the population here, and seemingly can't give the Virus away for trying. Health Authorities keep calling for more people to get tested, in a seemingly desperate attempt to create an environment conducive to keeping the State border closed. Reports come out regularly about the Virus being found in Sewage treatment plants all over the State, but without empirical evidence of whether it's confirmed Covid-19 antibodies or merely "a Coronavirus", which can apparently just be the Common Cold.

The longer this goes on, the less things are adding up.

S

[Jeff]

Stuff like this just makes me shake my head..................... sure makes a guy wonder what is REALLY going on............  I keep reminding folks that the Politicians work for US we DON'T work for them !! And I have never known or seen  SO MANY 'experts' out there.... I must be the ONLY one who ISN'T some sort of 'expert'..................... just sayin

[TonyWills]

People doubting figures, questioning the truth, wondering what is "really" going on?

It's getting to be like conspiracy theory central here.

I'm with Hubert on this. 221,000 dead Americans should be enough of a statistic to at least get Americans to understand this thing is very real and very deadly. By the spring, we may well lose approaching half a million Americans, as the weather sends people indoors. That'll be more than the US lost in WWII, and only the civil war will have been more deadly, yet both took a lot longer than 12 months. It's just so unnecessary, we are the richest country on the planet, with some of the best hospitals & pharmaceutical companies.

It really is sickening.

[krow113]

My business , mostly tourism driven has continued to move in an upward fashion.

Not complaining!

I've had people from all over the world in my store in the last 4 months , Asia , Europe , USA , all of them.

I feel fine.

The end game here , too subtle or inconclusive for some , has to be simply to get us to go after each other.

As if the divisive 2 party political agenda wasnt enough , they want us to be looking at each other rather than what they are doing.

'They' you ask?

Our so called leaders. In Canada they are selling the country and keeping the money , and have insulated themselves form accountability , responsibility and any kind of actual leadership.

Things have gotten a LOT worse , and it has NOTHING to do with any disease.

[Wumm]

Calm down Dear...

On 10/21/2020 at 10:22 PM, TonyWills said:

People doubting figures, questioning the truth, wondering what is "really" going on?

It's getting to be like conspiracy theory central here.

Skepticism and dissenting opinions are the cornerstone of Scientific advancement. Without them, we'd still believe that the Earth was flat, or would still be prescribing the inhalation of Mercury vapours to cure the Dropsy.

As I've pointed out elsewhere in this thread; in May we had a Nurse working in an Aged Care Facility, who was merciless hauled over the coals by the State Government for going to work while experiencing Covid symptoms. However in September, the State Premier herself continued working for four days while displaying the very same symptoms; visiting several Regional Cities and coming in contact with hundreds of people. 

Would you care to explain how this paradox makes any sense whatsoever?

S 

[BradG]

Doubt is the corner stone of all scientific advancement. 

[Wumm]

 

16 hours ago, BradG said:

Doubt is the corner stone of all scientific advancement. 

This is a fact...

The purpose of Science is not to discover the truth; but to manufacture doubt by establishing which Theories cannot be falsified. Scientific Laws (Newton's Law, Kirchoff's Law etc.) are misnomers... these are merely Theories based upon accepted outcomes according to the limits of the available testing. Ergo, Scientific Concensus and Peer Review belong in the same category. 

However; Methodological Doubt, when taken to the extreme is the antithesis of Science. This is also a fact... Questioning everything for the sake of obstinacy. The current trend of deconstructing established norms around Climate Change, Critical Race Theory and even Political discourse seems to be thriving in the current vacuum created by the uncertainty of Covid-19. And to call someone out, even if you have factual evidence that runs counter to their beliefs, somehow makes you guilty of Heresy.

The inherent problem with applying doubt to any Theory lies in basing your skepticism on empirical evidence that runs counter to the established norms; and not merely on rhetoric that you've stumbled upon through confirming your own unconscious bias. The Covid-19 experience in Australia has few parallels with that of the United States.

The Authorities here where I live are ignoring the Medical evidence, and creating doubt in the Community. There is no consistency between their words and their actions. Anyone who raises a contrary argument is belittled and humiliated. The requirement to wear masks in Medical facilities was revoked on the 1st of October, and tens of thousands of people are allowed to attend Football matches in crowded Stadiums. Yet they still say not enough people are being tested for Covid-19.

If they want more people to be tested (which backs up their belief that it's still spreading throughout the Community), then why are they allowing thousands of unrelated and therefore virtually untraceable individuals to congregate together without any PPE or Social Distancing.

How does any of this make sense?

S